Reality check for TOP GUN fans.

[Celticguy]

I get that you are painting this LV Meet as some sort of precursor to the Top Gun school and in a vague sense it kinda is but a meet is a competition while Top Gun is a by invitation program.

Good for the Tuskegee airmen who showed their prowess way back when but I think its a stretch to conflate the two.

[Celticguy]

By the way, Tuskegee guys were Army Air Corp. Top Gun is Navy.

[Taichiliberal]

I get that you are painting this LV Meet as some sort of precursor to the Top Gun school and in a vague sense it kinda is but a meet is a competition while Top Gun is a by invitation program.

Good for the Tuskegee airmen who showed their prowess way back when but I think its a stretch to conflate the two.

You can split that hair all you want, but the root is the same. It's called a "precursor", and like it or not aerial competition is the cumulation of academic and physical training. Setting the record clear is never a wrong doing.

[Taichiliberal]

By the way, Tuskegee guys were Army Air Corp. Top Gun is Navy.

And a plane is a plane is a plane. Hair splitting won't change the root.

[Street Glider]

Why don't you learn how to read carefully and comprehensively before your fingers hit the keys?

Here's what you've obviously missed. I've highlighted it for you:

The POINT of the OP is that when all this STARTED, black folk won a fair & square contest ... and folk of your mindset wouldn't give them their full credit due out of sheer racist spite.

Those who know NOTHING beyond their own birthdays ASSUMED that the movie was the full, valid history of TOP GUN as it implied. Fact is, it wasn't.

What you say here are essentially moot points that DO NOT alter the implications and FACTS of the OP one iota. Deal with it.

If you STILL don't get it, look up the word PRECURSOR and apply it to the OP. Beyond that, I can't help you. Good luck, bunky.

So, you're completely inept at showing where anything I said was incorrect.

Got it.

The movie was not, nor was it ever intended to be, a full historical narrative of Top Gun. Ergo, whining about that is stupid and ignorant but, damn, don't you do it so well...

[T. A. Gardner]

By the way, Tuskegee guys were Army Air Corp. Top Gun is Navy.

On the whole, the 332nd FG performed about as well as other fighter groups assigned to the MTO / ETO.

[Doc Dutch]

....This was a PRECURSOR to the TOP GUN school & Red Flag in dealing with aerial combat - which culminates in a competition, whether you acknowledge it or not. You can split the hair, but the root remains the same. Again, black folk were denied their place in American history for a LONG time. Deal with it.

Nice try. Thanks for the patronizing backpedal.

Here's a hint: the American military began flying shortly after the Wright Brothers invented the fucking thing. Their first fatality? 1LT Thomas Selfridge....the PRECURSOR to all military aviation.

What is your point, Liberal, aside from twisting history?

[Celticguy]

On the whole, the 332nd FG performed about as well as other fighter groups assigned to the MTO / ETO.

and given they were not exactly funded in kind for training etc thats a pretty good showing.

[T. A. Gardner]

and given they were not exactly funded in kind for training etc thats a pretty good showing.

Actually, they got the same flight school training other USAAF pilots got at the time, no difference. About the only thing I can say they were slightly shafted by was they initially got the hand-me-downs in terms of aircraft when they arrived in the Mediterranean. Their first combat aircraft was the P-39, and they were the last group in the Med to operate it. They were then issued P-47 Thunderbolts, trading these in late 1944 for the P-51 Mustang.

In terms of missions and operations, the group was given the same ones other fighter groups got so there really wasn't any prejudice in terms of their combat operations.

[McRocket]

Okay, let's try this from another angle.

One: READ CAREFULLY AND COMPREHENSIVELY: But in reality, it was a Tuskegee Airmen who took part and won the military’s first “Top Gun” style competition The United States Air Force held their “First Ever” Weapons Meet at Las Vegas Air Force Base, Nevada on 2 May 1949. The famous 332nd Fighter Group Team, of Captain Alva Temple, 1st Lieutenant Harry Stewart, 1st Lieutenant James Harvey and alternate pilot 1st Lieutenant Halbert Alexander won the Competition. However, the 332nd Fighter Group was never recognized as the “Winner” until April 1995. Forty-Six years after winning the Weapons Meet.

This was a PRECURSOR to the TOP GUN school in dealing with aerial combat - which culminates in a competition, whether you acknowledge it or not. You can split the hair, but the root remains the same. Again, black folk were denied their place in American history for a LONG time. Deal with it.

1) I don't care about the 'root' in this case.
I care about accuracy/exactitude.

2) I see no link to ANY evidence that the 1949 competition was anything but that.
It was NOT a school that I have seen.

And there is no such thing as a 'Top Gun style competition'.
As 'Top Gun' - in this instance - STRICTLY refers to the he Strike Fighter Tactics Instructor program.

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/vie....html?chrome=1

3) Top Gun is a NAVAL school.
What you are referring to is an Air Force competition.


You can argue about it forever.
The fact remains that the article you used is comparing apples and oranges.
The author was being very lazy in his writing.

[Taichiliberal]

Originally Posted by Taichiliberal View Post
Why don't you learn how to read carefully and comprehensively before your fingers hit the keys?

Here's what you've obviously missed. I've highlighted it for you:

The POINT of the OP is that when all this STARTED, black folk won a fair & square contest ... and folk of your mindset wouldn't give them their full credit due out of sheer racist spite.

Those who know NOTHING beyond their own birthdays ASSUMED that the movie was the full, valid history of TOP GUN as it implied. Fact is, it wasn't.

What you say here are essentially moot points that DO NOT alter the implications and FACTS of the OP one iota. Deal with it.

If you STILL don't get it, look up the word PRECURSOR and apply it to the OP. Beyond that, I can't help you. Good luck, bunky.

So, you're completely inept at showing where anything I said was incorrect.

Got it.

The movie was not, nor was it ever intended to be, a full historical narrative of Top Gun. Ergo, whining about that is stupid and ignorant but, damn, don't you do it so well...

No one said that the movie was a historical narrative.....but people believe what they see, and with the subliminal jingoism in a Reagan era movie, most don't make the distinctions. Which is why the OP is so upsetting to jokers like you...more proof of this country's systemic racism that infects it historical record.

There you have it, dear readers. Another intellectually impotent MAGA minion who proudly glides down the street of insipidly stubborn stupidity.

[Taichiliberal]

Originally Posted by Taichiliberal View Post
....This was a PRECURSOR to the TOP GUN school & Red Flag in dealing with aerial combat - which culminates in a competition, whether you acknowledge it or not. You can split the hair, but the root remains the same. Again, black folk were denied their place in American history for a LONG time. Deal with it.

Nice try. Thanks for the patronizing backpedal.

Here's a hint: the American military began flying shortly after the Wright Brothers invented the fucking thing. Their first fatality? 1LT Thomas Selfridge....the PRECURSOR to all military aviation.

What is your point, Liberal, aside from twisting history?

For some reason, this OP has struck some jingoistic nerve in you that results in irrational/illogical babbling.

That's the only explanation to how you are trying to label additional definition and clarification as "back pedaling".
Nothing I posted is inaccurate...that can be verified and you can't disprove or debunk it, so your final accusation is false.

Now I know you're not stupid and you can read, so you definitely understand the OP as well as my responses to those trying to misrepresent what is presented. All one has to do is have a high school G.E.D. and follow the chronology of the posts to see that.

What I don't understand is your using the same moronic tactics the MAGA minions are so fond of....juxtaposed moot points combined with some idiotic supposition and conjecture to make a comparison. C'mon Dutch, you can do better.

[Doc Dutch]

For some reason, this OP has struck some jingoistic nerve in you that results in irrational/illogical babbling.

Disagreed. IMO, you're making a big deal out of nothing.

God bless all the Heroes who served our nation. Despite the racism of the times, God bless those who served in the 332nd Fighter Group and 477th Bombardment Group of the US Army Air Corps.

[Taichiliberal]

Originally Posted by Taichiliberal View Post
Okay, let's try this from another angle.

One: READ CAREFULLY AND COMPREHENSIVELY: But in reality, it was a Tuskegee Airmen who took part and won the military’s first “Top Gun” style competition The United States Air Force held their “First Ever” Weapons Meet at Las Vegas Air Force Base, Nevada on 2 May 1949. The famous 332nd Fighter Group Team, of Captain Alva Temple, 1st Lieutenant Harry Stewart, 1st Lieutenant James Harvey and alternate pilot 1st Lieutenant Halbert Alexander won the Competition. However, the 332nd Fighter Group was never recognized as the “Winner” until April 1995. Forty-Six years after winning the Weapons Meet.

This was a PRECURSOR to the TOP GUN school in dealing with aerial combat - which culminates in a competition, whether you acknowledge it or not. You can split the hair, but the root remains the same. Again, black folk were denied their place in American history for a LONG time. Deal with it.

1) I don't care about the 'root' in this case.
I care about accuracy/exactitude.

2) I see no link to ANY evidence that the 1949 competition was anything but that.
It was NOT a school that I have seen.

And there is no such thing as a 'Top Gun style competition'.
As 'Top Gun' - in this instance - STRICTLY refers to the he Strike Fighter Tactics Instructor program.

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/vie....html?chrome=1

3) Top Gun is a NAVAL school.
What you are referring to is an Air Force competition.


You can argue about it forever.
The fact remains that the article you used is comparing apples and oranges.
The author was being very lazy in his writing.

1. Your first sentence is illogical and irrational. Accuracy in history is the point of the OP. The movie came out in the jingoistic Reagan era, and most people believe what they see in the movies that refer to real life/history. The OP just gives a little background that the majority of Americans (you and myself included) weren't aware of....background that was essentially hidden from the public. Any historian worth his salt will tell you that accurate history is a culmination of as much information as possible in order to understand the final fact...from roots to fruit, so to speak. That the OP disturbs you so much that you read into it what HAS NOT been said is most telling.

2. And since the information presented does NOT state or allude to the contest being a "school", you assertion is rendered flat in error. And PUH-LEEZE spare us all this bleat about "it's not a school". Bottom line: The schools are preparing pilots for practical application of what they learn....the "red flag" utilizes that learning. What the OP points out that the PRECURSOR to what is the final culmination of later schooling and competition was one by black pilots who denied their credit on the official record.

3. No kidding? Tell us something we don't know. Are you saying that all that knowledge and training and such is kept secret from other branches of the military? And since the NAVY didn't have such a competition at the time, it's a significant note in military aviation.

4. You can repeat your assertion until doomsday, but careful reading of the article tells the tale, and your lame attempt to diminish it's significance is pathetic.

[Taichiliberal]

Originally Posted by Taichiliberal View Post
For some reason, this OP has struck some jingoistic nerve in you that results in irrational/illogical babbling.

Disagreed. IMO, you're making a big deal out of nothing.

God bless all the Heroes who served our nation. Despite the racism of the times, God bless those who served in the 332nd Fighter Group and 477th Bombardment Group of the US Army Air Corps.

Your "opinion" is what it is....a disturbed retort regarding a historical fact that puts a new perspective on a highly popular piece of cinematic jingoistic fluff from the Reagan era that America has embraced as part of it's real history.

You're flag waving won't change the reality of the OP. Learn to deal with it....we have.