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Thread: Conservatives and War

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    Default Conservatives and War

    Only because the post on Conservatives and the Justice System was part of a bigger blog. It is all well written

    The Right loves war. Right-wing foreign policy "realists" believe that negotiation, diplomacy and containment are for wimps and simply does not work. War is not a last option, but a first priority for the Frum-Perle-Wolfowitz Axis of Aggression. The Right lied and deceived its way into getting a war with Iraq, a war against a nation that posed no real threat to the United States. Instead of admitting their error, the authoritarians have instead been giving each other high-fives and hoping they can soon create another conflict with Damascus or Tehran.

    How many people on the right have called out their masters on their lying and deception with this war? Not many. It’s because they don’t really a problem with it (unless it’s a Democrat doing the lying). In their eyes the lies and distortions were justifiable means to a noble end. They got their war and they got their occupation. Tough luck for anyone who doesn’t like it.

    Conservatives also show themselves to be incredibly calloused to the suffering of foreigners caused by their beloved wars. I’ve heard not a few conservatives make remarks like, "We ought to just make the entire Middle East a parking lot." Most of these people saying this were only half-serious. But I fail to see how it is funny to joke about causing the mass killing of millions of people because you don’t like them.

    To fight all the conservatives’ desired wars you need more manpower. Who is more likely to support the draft? The Left or the Right? The Right, which supposedly hates government, loves the military. They believe in enormous wasteful spending to keep the bloated military machine obese. Not only that, many have no problem with the anti-freedom concept of the draft. Not only are you obligated through the force of law to fund the military machine through your taxes, you also owe the State your body and possibly your life.

    Many on the Authoritarian Right have prattled on about how the draft is great for American because it teaches young people "responsibility" and contributes to the safety of America. What it really does is teaches young people that they are slaves of the State and that their hopes, dreams and freedoms take a back seat to the wishes of government thugs who want to use them to do their dirty work.

    Speaking of the government’s dirty work, again conservatives assume that the government can do no wrong with nations that it is ticked off at. Thus all the conservatives stumbling and bumbling while they try to come up with excuses for the government’s deception for the latest Iraq war. The government would never, ever lie to us about why it’s going to war! The government simply can’t be wrong that Country A is bad and that we need to bomb them. Just as in the legal system, when it comes to foreign policy, the government is never ever wrong – especially if it’s a conservative running the show.

    In the eyes of the Authoritarian Right, America is always right, everyone else is always wrong. If you question this, then you are a liberal, or even worse you are a subversive that doesn’t support our country! The final recourse for any frustrated conservative discussing foreign policy with a non-aggressor is telling them to leave the country if they don’t like it. When all else fails, the authoritarian attacks the person’s patriotism, intelligence, personal morality, and allegiance to their homeland. This is rather fitting for the authoritarian conservative, who would prefer dissenters get out of the way and physically leave the country rather than have their statist agenda challenged.

    Conclusion

    When one really takes a look at mainstream conservative thought, it becomes quite clear that they are not really supporters of freedom and liberty. In fact, they can support some of the worst forms of tyranny and repression possible. As has been stated in the body of this essay, they have no problem with the government so long as they are the ones running it. They seek not to shrink, but to expand the government into our daily lives. They put a blind and dangerous faith in the legal system and support injustice in the name of being "tough on crime." Most dangerously, they believe in using the U.S. military to impose their authoritarianism around the world, no matter what the cost is to human life and personal freedom.

    Those of us who have awakened to this fact have said goodbye to the mainstream conservative movement. While not liberals or leftists by any means, we seek not to associate ourselves with the Republican Party. We have in fact realized something that most Republicans and conservatives have not noticed: that the government is not our friend and that statism and authoritarianism can only be used for harm and not good.

    Today’s conservative movement is boiling down to this: You can either support the watered down statism of the mainstream Right and their troubling authoritarianism, or you can subscribe to a more logically consistent and freedom-loving philosophy of those of us dissenters who reject both traditional Left and Right paradigms.

    Basically, if you call yourself a conservative, you can support one of two political and social philosophies. One supports statism, authoritarianism, and war, and the other represents what LRC stands for, "property, freedom, and peace." For me, it’s not that difficult to choose.

    Authoritarian Conservatism - by Bill Barnwell

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    The Right loves war.

    Sorry, but I refuse to read threads which begin with a flat out lie.

    NO ONE LIKES WAR DUMBASS!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dixie View Post
    Sorry, but I refuse to read threads which begin with a flat out lie.

    NO ONE LIKES WAR DUMBASS!
    Then you are missing out on a good read by a serious libertarian and NOT a lefty. I think you might get a lot out of it. But suit yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Socrtease View Post
    Then you are missing out on a good read by a serious libertarian and NOT a lefty. I think you might get a lot out of it. But suit yourself.
    Like I said, if it begins with a lie, I refuse to read on. Chances are, the whole thing is full of the same kind of lies, distortions, and misrepresentations. No one LOVES war, that should be a given, and if the author is too intellectually biased to admit that, I have no use to read a damn thing he/she writes. Sorry!

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    Today I saw a bumpersticker that said "Give War a Chance." I'm actually surprised this was the first one I've seen since its an obvious parody of the "Give War a Chance" stickers. Personally, if I were to fashion a parody it would say "Give Chance a Piece" but people might not get that one...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Socrtease View Post
    Then you are missing out on a good read by a serious libertarian and NOT a lefty. I think you might get a lot out of it. But suit yourself.
    Sochead, being the open-minded and fair individual I am, I gave you the benefit of the doubt on this and went ahead and read it. I convinced myself that the first sentence, which is a lie, might actually be intended as sarcasm, and maybe there was some rationale in the context of the piece. I was wrong. I counted five lies in the first paragraph, and by the time I reached the fourth, I had lost count.

    Upon finishing his lie-fest, I decided to check out his blog, since you claimed he was libertarian. He does indeed claim to be a Libertarian, but his articles are pretty much devoted to attacking conservatism viciously, especially the religious right. I actually think he is a radical left-wing anti-war liberal, and he hides behind the banner of Libertarianism as a foil. Lots of lefties do that, because it insulates them from criticism of the radical liberal Democrat party. You see, the left can't really convert conservatives to liberalism, but there is a possibility of converting a conservative to libertarian, and anything is better than them remaining conservative, so this guy is a liberal warrior disguised as a libertarian for that purpose, as best I can tell. I mean, my god, one of his articles is explaining why Obama is a good pick for president! I know of NO Libertarian who voted for Obama. Most of Obama's Big Government agenda is completely contradictory of Libertarianism. Yet, this cat felt compelled to write a fluff piece to cheerlead Obama. I think you've been duped.

    In the first part, he lies about the Right LOVES war, then goes on your typical left-wing anti-war rant for the next two paragraphs, parroting the exact same thing Democrats have been saying for 7 years. Nothing new, more of the same lies, distortions, misrepresentations, and contempt for Bush. More of the same overblown rhetoric about the war, and exaggerations regarding it. Then he goes from sublime to ridiculous with this statement...

    Who is more likely to support the draft? The Left or the Right? The Right, which supposedly hates government, loves the military.....Many on the Authoritarian Right have prattled on about how the draft is great for American because it teaches young people "responsibility" and contributes to the safety of America.

    Just where the hell does he get his information? I have never heard anyone on the Right, endorse, suggest, support, or otherwise condone, selective service! In fact, the record shows, it is something leftist DEMOCRATS continue to push and try to get implemented, not the Right! Add THAT to the long list of lies he has told in this one article.

    He goes on to conclude that the Right are "statists" and that too is false, it is the Democrat Liberals who are supreme statists. He ends by presenting a 'choice' for conservatives, they can either support war and statism or do as he has done and join the Libertarians. This should be enough to convince the most brain-dead moron in the world, the guy is not sincere and not really a Libertarian. I mean, take a look, Democrat Liberals control both branches of Congress and the White House, yet instead of attempting to sway the opinions of Liberals and siphon off Liberal votes, he is going after the Right! That only makes practical sense, if you want Liberals to continue in power, because Libertarians got all of 2% in the most recent election, and will be about the same next election. What he is doing is very clever, but deceitful and dishonest. But what else do we expect from Liberals?

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    Yet none of those pussies fought, armchair warhawks. Real brave with someone else's kid.
    The stone that the builder refused
    Will always be the head corner stone

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dixie View Post
    Sorry, but I refuse to read threads which begin with a flat out lie.

    NO ONE LIKES WAR DUMBASS!


    This picture says it all about the right and war!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dixie View Post
    Sochead, being the open-minded and fair individual I am, I gave you the benefit of the doubt on this and went ahead and read it. I convinced myself that the first sentence, which is a lie, might actually be intended as sarcasm, and maybe there was some rationale in the context of the piece. I was wrong. I counted five lies in the first paragraph, and by the time I reached the fourth, I had lost count.

    Upon finishing his lie-fest, I decided to check out his blog, since you claimed he was libertarian. He does indeed claim to be a Libertarian, but his articles are pretty much devoted to attacking conservatism viciously, especially the religious right. I actually think he is a radical left-wing anti-war liberal, and he hides behind the banner of Libertarianism as a foil. Lots of lefties do that, because it insulates them from criticism of the radical liberal Democrat party. You see, the left can't really convert conservatives to liberalism, but there is a possibility of converting a conservative to libertarian, and anything is better than them remaining conservative, so this guy is a liberal warrior disguised as a libertarian for that purpose, as best I can tell. I mean, my god, one of his articles is explaining why Obama is a good pick for president! I know of NO Libertarian who voted for Obama. Most of Obama's Big Government agenda is completely contradictory of Libertarianism. Yet, this cat felt compelled to write a fluff piece to cheerlead Obama. I think you've been duped.

    In the first part, he lies about the Right LOVES war, then goes on your typical left-wing anti-war rant for the next two paragraphs, parroting the exact same thing Democrats have been saying for 7 years. Nothing new, more of the same lies, distortions, misrepresentations, and contempt for Bush. More of the same overblown rhetoric about the war, and exaggerations regarding it. Then he goes from sublime to ridiculous with this statement...

    Who is more likely to support the draft? The Left or the Right? The Right, which supposedly hates government, loves the military.....Many on the Authoritarian Right have prattled on about how the draft is great for American because it teaches young people "responsibility" and contributes to the safety of America.

    Just where the hell does he get his information? I have never heard anyone on the Right, endorse, suggest, support, or otherwise condone, selective service! In fact, the record shows, it is something leftist DEMOCRATS continue to push and try to get implemented, not the Right! Add THAT to the long list of lies he has told in this one article.

    He goes on to conclude that the Right are "statists" and that too is false, it is the Democrat Liberals who are supreme statists. He ends by presenting a 'choice' for conservatives, they can either support war and statism or do as he has done and join the Libertarians. This should be enough to convince the most brain-dead moron in the world, the guy is not sincere and not really a Libertarian. I mean, take a look, Democrat Liberals control both branches of Congress and the White House, yet instead of attempting to sway the opinions of Liberals and siphon off Liberal votes, he is going after the Right! That only makes practical sense, if you want Liberals to continue in power, because Libertarians got all of 2% in the most recent election, and will be about the same next election. What he is doing is very clever, but deceitful and dishonest. But what else do we expect from Liberals?
    First of all the article was written Mar 11, 2004 before Obama was elected and Democrats had control of either house...

    I am part JFK liberal and part Goldwater libertarian, and I can tell you there are things Barnwell writes that I don't agree with. And if you visit Lew Rockwell.com, there will be things you agree with and things disagree with. I supported Ron Paul who is a libertarian in the beginning of the primaries...and I don't agree with all his views...

    I can also tell you that Goldwater Republicans are the MOST vocal about the current state of the GOP...they had their party hijacked by the far right Christian hawks and the far left Trotskyist hawks (the neocons)...

    The GOP has moved to the extreme right...THAT is why they had their heads handed to them in '06 and '08...and the "base" wants to PURIFY the party... get rid of all the moderate Republicans... sounds like the Nazi party!

    You say there are no libertarians that voted for Obama? How about Republicans and TRUE conservatives... Colin Powell, Susan Eisenhower and Christopher Buckley, son of William F...Chris said: "Let me be the latest conservative/libertarian/whatever to leap onto the Barack Obama bandwagon." Just to name a few...

    ďYou know, Iíve spent my entire life time separating the Right from the kooks.Ē
    William F. Buckley Jr.
    The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.
    John Kenneth Galbraith

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    Quote Originally Posted by Socrtease View Post
    Then you are missing out on a good read by a serious libertarian and NOT a lefty. I think you might get a lot out of it. But suit yourself.
    Douchey is your political identity.
    Morality is a set of attitudes and behaviors which facilitate voluntary, cooperative and mutually beneficial relationships. --AssHatZombie

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    Socrtease, funny but that piece falls in-line with most of my impressions and assumptions about conservatives. I know so many who avoided the draft in one way or the other and yet supported the war (read illegal invasion) in Iraq. 'Love' may be a bit of exaggeration, but war (military buildups) is a part of their thinking, and for the religious right a part of Gawd's plan. Remember their magical hero Ronnie brought down Russian communism and all he did was buy weapons.

    I would add one significant idea or analogy to his summation of conservatism. Conservatism cannot justify, hide, or engage in their rape of the land, law, and resources without pointing their crooked finger at liberalism. It is all they can do, distracting attention from their failure is their forte.

    As a lefty socialist liberal, I support the draft as I feel citizens have a responsibility to the nation that provides them the wherewithal for an excellent life - which I have had partly because of the GI bill. It is duty rather than slavery. I part with the author on the caviler idea that individual freedom (whatever that may be to the person) leads to nirvana, anyone older that 12 knows that is BS.

    As is well known here, I am also opposed to libertarian thought which I see as naive and selfish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Socrtease View Post
    Only because the post on Conservatives and the Justice System was part of a bigger blog. It is all well written

    The Right loves war. Right-wing foreign policy "realists" believe that negotiation, diplomacy and containment are for wimps and simply does not work. War is not a last option, but a first priority for the Frum-Perle-Wolfowitz Axis of Aggression. The Right lied and deceived its way into getting a war with Iraq, a war against a nation that posed no real threat to the United States. Instead of admitting their error, the authoritarians have instead been giving each other high-fives and hoping they can soon create another conflict with Damascus or Tehran.

    How many people on the right have called out their masters on their lying and deception with this war? Not many. Itís because they donít really a problem with it (unless itís a Democrat doing the lying). In their eyes the lies and distortions were justifiable means to a noble end. They got their war and they got their occupation. Tough luck for anyone who doesnít like it.

    Conservatives also show themselves to be incredibly calloused to the suffering of foreigners caused by their beloved wars. Iíve heard not a few conservatives make remarks like, "We ought to just make the entire Middle East a parking lot." Most of these people saying this were only half-serious. But I fail to see how it is funny to joke about causing the mass killing of millions of people because you donít like them.

    To fight all the conservativesí desired wars you need more manpower. Who is more likely to support the draft? The Left or the Right? The Right, which supposedly hates government, loves the military. They believe in enormous wasteful spending to keep the bloated military machine obese. Not only that, many have no problem with the anti-freedom concept of the draft. Not only are you obligated through the force of law to fund the military machine through your taxes, you also owe the State your body and possibly your life.

    Many on the Authoritarian Right have prattled on about how the draft is great for American because it teaches young people "responsibility" and contributes to the safety of America. What it really does is teaches young people that they are slaves of the State and that their hopes, dreams and freedoms take a back seat to the wishes of government thugs who want to use them to do their dirty work.

    Speaking of the governmentís dirty work, again conservatives assume that the government can do no wrong with nations that it is ticked off at. Thus all the conservatives stumbling and bumbling while they try to come up with excuses for the governmentís deception for the latest Iraq war. The government would never, ever lie to us about why itís going to war! The government simply canít be wrong that Country A is bad and that we need to bomb them. Just as in the legal system, when it comes to foreign policy, the government is never ever wrong Ė especially if itís a conservative running the show.

    In the eyes of the Authoritarian Right, America is always right, everyone else is always wrong. If you question this, then you are a liberal, or even worse you are a subversive that doesnít support our country! The final recourse for any frustrated conservative discussing foreign policy with a non-aggressor is telling them to leave the country if they donít like it. When all else fails, the authoritarian attacks the personís patriotism, intelligence, personal morality, and allegiance to their homeland. This is rather fitting for the authoritarian conservative, who would prefer dissenters get out of the way and physically leave the country rather than have their statist agenda challenged.

    Conclusion

    When one really takes a look at mainstream conservative thought, it becomes quite clear that they are not really supporters of freedom and liberty. In fact, they can support some of the worst forms of tyranny and repression possible. As has been stated in the body of this essay, they have no problem with the government so long as they are the ones running it. They seek not to shrink, but to expand the government into our daily lives. They put a blind and dangerous faith in the legal system and support injustice in the name of being "tough on crime." Most dangerously, they believe in using the U.S. military to impose their authoritarianism around the world, no matter what the cost is to human life and personal freedom.

    Those of us who have awakened to this fact have said goodbye to the mainstream conservative movement. While not liberals or leftists by any means, we seek not to associate ourselves with the Republican Party. We have in fact realized something that most Republicans and conservatives have not noticed: that the government is not our friend and that statism and authoritarianism can only be used for harm and not good.

    Todayís conservative movement is boiling down to this: You can either support the watered down statism of the mainstream Right and their troubling authoritarianism, or you can subscribe to a more logically consistent and freedom-loving philosophy of those of us dissenters who reject both traditional Left and Right paradigms.

    Basically, if you call yourself a conservative, you can support one of two political and social philosophies. One supports statism, authoritarianism, and war, and the other represents what LRC stands for, "property, freedom, and peace." For me, itís not that difficult to choose.

    Authoritarian Conservatism - by Bill Barnwell
    That just about sums it up. Thankfully, the majority of the voters caught on.
    "May your reality be as pleasant as mine."

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    I think it is a sign that the Rs want to be Rs again. To move back to the central theme of personal freedoms and responsibilities, smaller and more fiscally responsible central government, stronger state and local governments...

    Even most of the conservative Independents rejected the Rs because of their continued drive down the path they were taking and the fact they could not trust the Rs to do what they were elected to do.
    Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but rather we have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
    - -- Aristotle

    Believe nothing on the faith of traditions, even though they have been held in honor for many generations and in diverse places. Do not believe a thing because many people speak of it. Do not believe on the faith of the sages of the past. Do not believe what you yourself have imagined, persuading yourself that a God inspires you. Believe nothing on the sole authority of your masters and priests. After examination, believe what you yourself have tested and found to be reasonable, and conform your conduct thereto.
    - -- The Buddha

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    There seems to be some misconceptions about why the Republicans lost power. If we take a really pragmatic look at the events since Reagan, it is clear, the Republican party became weak during the Clinton reign, and never corrected course. Since 1996, we have seen the Republicans slide to the middle, often with a contingent hell-bent on "going along to get along" with democrats. John McCain is the poster child for this movement.

    When I talk to REPUBLICANS who disliked Bush, it was NOT because Bush was too right wing, or too socially conservative, it was because Bush was not conservative enough! The Pill Bill, spending more than the previous two Democrat presidents, letting Ted Kennedy define the Education Bill, abandoning vouchers, not balancing the budget... not being a conservative! I think many saw McCain as yet another degree away from Conservatism... we moved a degree away with Bush Sr., and another degree away with Bush Jr. and McCain represented yet another departure from conservative principles.

    Now it seems we have all these "Libertarian" pinheads, telling us why we lost! Look, republicans aren't libertarians, and they aren't liberals, they are conservatives. You guys have your party, you have your ideology, stop trying to cajole republicans into something that doesn't define who they are. It should be obvious, no elections are going to be won by standing in the middle of the road and trying to be half-ass conservative and half-ass liberal at the same time, it simply doesn't work in politics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dixie View Post
    There seems to be some misconceptions about why the Republicans lost power. If we take a really pragmatic look at the events since Reagan, it is clear, the Republican party became weak during the Clinton reign, and never corrected course. Since 1996, we have seen the Republicans slide to the middle, often with a contingent hell-bent on "going along to get along" with democrats. John McCain is the poster child for this movement.

    When I talk to REPUBLICANS who disliked Bush, it was NOT because Bush was too right wing, or too socially conservative, it was because Bush was not conservative enough! The Pill Bill, spending more than the previous two Democrat presidents, letting Ted Kennedy define the Education Bill, abandoning vouchers, not balancing the budget... not being a conservative! I think many saw McCain as yet another degree away from Conservatism... we moved a degree away with Bush Sr., and another degree away with Bush Jr. and McCain represented yet another departure from conservative principles.

    Now it seems we have all these "Libertarian" pinheads, telling us why we lost! Look, republicans aren't libertarians, and they aren't liberals, they are conservatives. You guys have your party, you have your ideology, stop trying to cajole republicans into something that doesn't define who they are. It should be obvious, no elections are going to be won by standing in the middle of the road and trying to be half-ass conservative and half-ass liberal at the same time, it simply doesn't work in politics.
    I am a Republican, and these were the ideals that Reagan won with. I'll happily return to when the R Party was "strong" in your opinion, and what gained them the majority in the Congress during Clinton's term. The positions I outlined above. That was what got them elected, and also what caused them to lose their majority.

    And yes, I would outline those things and a bit more that I disliked about Bush.
    Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but rather we have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
    - -- Aristotle

    Believe nothing on the faith of traditions, even though they have been held in honor for many generations and in diverse places. Do not believe a thing because many people speak of it. Do not believe on the faith of the sages of the past. Do not believe what you yourself have imagined, persuading yourself that a God inspires you. Believe nothing on the sole authority of your masters and priests. After examination, believe what you yourself have tested and found to be reasonable, and conform your conduct thereto.
    - -- The Buddha

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