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Thread: Education and Politics

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    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    There are all kinds of trade jobs that pay six figures. I know this board is full of millionaires but for a lot of 'regular folk' I don't think making $100K is all that bad.

    The real problem with discussions like this is it all revolves how do people vote. Then as partisans we decide we like better those who vote like we do. But if people actually put that sh*t aside, not every kid is cut out for college nor does every kid have to go to college. People can forge their own paths in life and live healthy and fulfilling lives without a college degree (and the massive amount of debt it can take to achieve).

    Edit: I guess I could be considered somewhat of a hypocrite because if you ask my five year old what she's going to do at 18 she'll tell you go to USC. (I don't tell her this but I'd let her go to Stanford if she were accepted.) So I couldn't fathom her not going to college short of her dropping out because she was some amazing entrepreneur. But on the whole not every kid has to go that path.
    Sure there are, but not the majority, but regardless, how many parents, hypothetically with say a junior high kid is going to automatically accept the school telling them their kid isn’t capable of an advanced education so we are going to track him into a vocational school?

    In many countries in Europe, Ireland which I know, tests kids and does track them entering secondary school, but those countries also have strong labor unions where a trade isn’t considered secondary, tough egalitarian view to sell in America

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mina View Post
    Yes. The kind of demagoguery Trump engages in is a dangerous game for a politician, in that it either works or it backfires badly -- in the latter case, not just failing to sway someone your way, but driving them away. And that's because it's based on statements that sound idiotic or mendacious to those who know more about the world. So, the uneducated are the key audience, and the educated are a problem.

    Take, for instance, Trump's 2016 campaign, where perhaps the single most important theme was scaring white people about a phantom crime wave, which supposedly was driven in large part by immigrants. Now, anyone who had taken a decent sociology class or just got into the habit of reading reputable newspapers had a bit too much context for that scaremongering to work. We knew that, in fact, murder rates in 2016 were near record lows, and that immigrants actually commit murders at lower rates than native-born Americans. So his demagoguery not only failed to scare us into supporting him, but actual drove us away, by making him seem dishonest. But for those who lacked that context, it worked.
    And continues to work today which explains the success of such as DeSantis and Abbott

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    While it is possible to be self educated, it is difficult. As much as you can claim to be "really, really intelligent", without some sort of education, you are pretty much useless in any tech business like Musk's. He is hiring well educated people, not high school dropouts who keep going on and on about how intelligent they supposedly are.
    Yes.

    One advantage of formal education is that if you go to a decent university, it forces you to learn things outside your existing interests, at least early in your education, and few people have the self-discipline to do that on their own. People who never have that formal higher education often never break out beyond a narrow set of interests, so although they may become pretty impressive in those narrow fields, they can be shockingly ignorant of context.

    I run into that online a lot -- like sixty-year-old men who could practically write you a book on the US Civil War's military history off the top of their heads, because they've been reading pop history about its battles for decades, but couldn't tell you a thing about what was going on in the world outside of the US at that moment.... or even much about non-military US history from the era. It's all just battlefields, generals, and maneuvers for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    It's actually very relevant when you claim people vote base on demagoguery. (it just doesn't bother you as much when the recipients of it vote the way you prefer)
    How?

    How does one use race to appeal to voters, especially higher educated voters?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Celticguy View Post
    Democrats walked away from the working class.
    They didn't. They still work for the working class, which is why they still win the working class handily. Biden beat Trump by 11 points among those earning under $50,000 per year, and by even more among those in the $50k-$100k range. Trump only did better among those earning $100k or more.

    Democrats just don't do well with the WHITE working class, because of the GOP's successful strategy of demagoguing racial issues.

    More to the point, a lot of people misuse the term "working class" as if it were synonymous with "undereducated white guy." It isn't. Say, for instance, that you inherited a plumbing business from your father, and now you live comfortably off the labors of a bunch of employees who do the actual wrench-turning. Even if you don't have a day of education past high school, that doesn't make you "working class." It makes you part of the ownership class. Same with people who got handed a family farm, and now sit out on their porch drinking sweet tea while the brown people sweat in their fields.

    That's really the key demographic of Trump-era Republicans -- not the working class, but the white, rural ownership class.

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    Quote Originally Posted by archives View Post
    Sure there are, but not the majority, but regardless, how many parents, hypothetically with say a junior high kid is going to automatically accept the school telling them their kid isn’t capable of an advanced education so we are going to track him into a vocational school?

    In many countries in Europe, Ireland which I know, tests kids and does track them entering secondary school, but those countries also have strong labor unions where a trade isn’t considered secondary, tough egalitarian view to sell in America
    I'm not speaking/suggesting at all about going the European model route of putting kids in a vocational school path early on. We see plenty of kids go into huge debt though to go to college for certain degrees where they make little money in their profession. I see no problem if a kid desires trade school instead (if there's an opportunity for work in that field).

    (And we're not talking about kids who are choosing between Cal Berkeley or trade school.)

    The OP made it clear he/she only cares how people vote. I hope we don't dictate policy on education in that regard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Dillon View Post
    Sweeping generalizations are exactly that
    Yes, and that's why I didn't stick with sweeping generalizations. I provided a lot of specifics, such as what number of the most educated states went for the Dems and what number of the least educated went for the Republicans. And if you don't believe my very specific claims, I provided a link with which you can confirm for yourself. I understand that you'd like to use a sweeping generalization to dismiss those facts, but they aren't going anywhere merely because they made you uncomfortable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by archives View Post
    How?

    How does one use race to appeal to voters, especially higher educated voters?
    Joe "they'll put you back in chains y'all" Biden? Joe "you ain't black if you vote for Trump" Biden? We can have an entire conversation of how Democrats use race to gain/keep minority voters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by archives View Post
    Sure there are, but not the majority, but regardless, how many parents, hypothetically with say a junior high kid is going to automatically accept the school telling them their kid isn’t capable of an advanced education so we are going to track him into a vocational school?

    In many countries in Europe, Ireland which I know, tests kids and does track them entering secondary school, but those countries also have strong labor unions where a trade isn’t considered secondary, tough egalitarian view to sell in America
    You may remember Dick Vitale (used to love to rush home from school in the '80's and listen to him on Big Monday). I can remember him talking about athletes and how they needed to teach the kids trade skills. I was young and didn't think much of it at the time but now that I remember him saying that I get where he was coming from. Everyone has their own path.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    I'm not speaking/suggesting at all about going the European model route of putting kids in a vocational school path early on. We see plenty of kids go into huge debt though to go to college for certain degrees where they make little money in their profession. I see no problem if a kid desires trade school instead (if there's an opportunity for work in that field).

    (And we're not talking about kids who are choosing between Cal Berkeley or trade school.)

    The OP made it clear he/she only cares how people vote. I hope we don't dictate policy on education in that regard.
    I don’t either, what I am pointing out is that it is not an easy thing to institute a trade school path like many envision as the solution

    Truth be known the entire 19th Century factory model used in American education needs to be rethought

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    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    Joe "they'll put you back in chains y'all" Biden? Joe "you ain't black if you vote for Trump" Biden? We can have an entire conversation of how Democrats use race to gain/keep minority voters.
    None of that would appeal the more educated voter, if anything, it is aimed at a small percentages of voters, and most importantly, it is not endorsed nor echoed thru any media,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mina View Post
    That's certainly been a common talking point among right-wingers, eager to explain away the strong correlation between educated societies and left-leaning societies. But one fascinating thing about the phenomenon is that it existed even before the correlation held true at the individual level.

    For example, as recently as the 2012 election, Republicans were doing better with those individuals who have college degrees. Romney won 53% of college graduates, and Obama won just 43%. Yet, even as that correlation favored Republicans at the individual level, it favored Democrats at the societal level: the most educated states and communities went for Obama.

    Then, as now, Massachusetts was the most educated state, whether you measured by percentage of people with a bachelor's degree, percent with a degree from a highly competitive university, percent with an advanced degree, or just in terms of the quality of high schools in the state (it has dominated NAEP scores for decades). And, even with Massachusetts being Romney's home state, Obama manhandled him there, just as he did in every other highly-educated state... a margin of well over 20 points, in fact.

    I find that really interesting: that Romney could do better with college-educated people at the individual level, while being completely uncompetitive in highly educated states and localities. Why?

    There's a critical-mass issue there. When you have a critical mass of well-educated people in an area, the voting tendencies of both the educated and the uneducated in that area tend to move left. Or, to put it the other way, when there's a critical mass of ignorance, both the educated and the uneducated in the area are more likely to vote Republican.

    I suppose some of that may come down to the fact that liberal politics are based around collective action, and how appealing collective action is going to seem depends in large part on who you see around you. If you're surrounded by ignoramuses, you're more likely to figure you're better off going it alone, and you'll tell the government to butt out. If, on the other hand, you're surrounded by well-educated people, you're more likely to think banding together on something is a way to make the whole better than the sum of the parts.

    To put it in really simple terms, imagine you're in a gym class and you have a choice of playing a team sport like basketball, or an individual one like distance running. If you look around you and see a bunch of uncoordinated, unmotivated slobs, the idea of your success being dependent on them is going to look less attractive and you'll go for the individual sport. But if you look around and see a bunch of strong athletes, the team sport may seem like a better way to motivate each other and come together for something special.
    Simple answer: Romney really isn't a mainstream Republican. He's more like Democrat lite. That is, he'd be a Democrat in the say, 1970's but isn't today because the Democrats have moved too far Left for his tastes. That's how he got elected governor of Massachusetts. He was seen as a moderate Democrat at a time when the Democrats were becoming Progressive Leftists.

    It also doesn't change what I said about people with degrees. I run into those sorts of idiots all the time. They have a degree in some simple liberal art and can't do percentages unless they happen to have a calculator with a % key on it. When I was in college the class that was a real eye opener to that was I took astronomy. I did this because I thought it would be fun and as a junior, I only had three classes toward my major that semester and needed a filler because of the way the GI Bill money worked. That is, I had 9 hours of classes, and needed 12 to get full funding. If I took 9 I lost like 50% of the funding because I'd be "parttime" by the rules of how that funding worked. Crazy huh?

    Anyway, here I was in this freshman astronomy class after physics with calculus, statistics, industrial engineering classes, a few electrical and nuclear engineering classes (my Navy background helped make those a breeze), etc. The class was close to 100 students and I was the sole standout it seemed. Everybody else, mostly women, were in liberal arts degree programs.

    I was just astounded again and again by the sheer vapidness and inability to think and problem solve that class had.

    Liberal / Leftist politics comes down to non-thinkers who operate off feelings and emotion, often to the point where they willfully ignore logic and facts even when presented with them.

    Here's an example I found just the other day. A PhD in psychology trying to argue that nuclear power is bad.

    https://emagazine.com/the-insanity-o...uclear-energy/

    That article is a mix of outright lies, wrong information, and conspiracy theories. It's a proof that education doesn't equal intelligence or even expert knowledge on some subject.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    You may remember Dick Vitale (used to love to rush home from school in the '80's and listen to him on Big Monday). I can remember him talking about athletes and how they needed to teach the kids trade skills. I was young and didn't think much of it at the time but now that I remember him saying that I get where he was coming from. Everyone has their own path.
    Yeah, but none of those paths starts with wanting to be a sheet rocker

    And I’d send the kid to Stanford, just start taping those daily vocabulary words to the bathroom mirror and encourage the right reading lists

    Not a Dick Vitale fan, when I watch a basketball game if I hear at all from the color commentator I prefer it relates to what is happening on the court, not some “diaper dandy” in Boise, Idaho who is going to be the next Magic Johnson. Al McGuire employed his street smarts and wit to add humor to his broadcasts, Vitale attempted to emulate that but largely wind up just echoing nonsense

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    Quote Originally Posted by archives View Post
    I don’t either, what I am pointing out is that it is not an easy thing to institute a trade school path like many envision as the solution

    Truth be known the entire 19th Century factory model used in American education needs to be rethought
    This is 100% correct. I don't know if Education Industrial Complex is a term but it exists. There are so many entrenched interests in the education system that change is extremely difficult. It's really unfortunate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by archives View Post
    Yeah, but none of those paths starts with wanting to be a sheet rocker

    And I’d send the kid to Stanford, just start taping those daily vocabulary words to the bathroom mirror and encourage the right reading lists

    Not a Dick Vitale fan, when I watch a basketball game if I hear at all from the color commentator I prefer it relates to what is happening on the court, not some “diaper dandy” in Boise, Idaho who is going to be the next Magic Johnson. Al McGuire employed his street smarts and wit to add humor to his broadcasts, Vitale attempted to emulate that but largely wind up just echoing nonsense
    The reality is there are many kids (Div 1 college b-ball players) that are in school because of athletics, not their grades (as in they would not have qualified for admissions strictly on academic merit). Many schools just push these kids to the easiest majors and give them a bunch of tutors to help keep them eligible. So when their eligibility is up they either don't have a degree or if they do it's probably not worth the paper its written on. That's who Vitale was talking about. Set these kids up with skills that will have real world applications.

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