Christian ethics vs. Roman values

[Cypress]

Fascinating. I think you are on to something about the fundie church. He relishes using the term "spanking" -- any bets that he was often publicly spanked in front of the congregation, pants down and everything? Or perhaps he went to a parochial school where the nuns did the same. That would account for his hatred and fear of both women *and* Christianity.

As you said, like it or not, Christianity's influence on Western culture, politics, and art/music is HUGE. Like a medicine, it has both good and bad aspects. It is untrue that America was founded on Christianity as some claim. Its influence though is undeniable.

My only quibble with modern Christians in America comes from the attempts by some sects to insert their beliefs into our government and our laws. They don't seem to realize that the only reason they are allowed to worship as they please IS our government and our laws.

America was a great experiment because we supposedly embraced plurality, and rejected the doctrine of a state church.

I think the reason the Romans of late antiquity, the Byzantine Empire, tsarist Russia embraced the concept of a state church of-sorts is because they were empires who perceived a need for a unifying force or institution to keep their realm stitched together.

[Cypress]

So, believing you are a good person is more important than being a good person.

I am simply stating historical facts, and these facts are fully supported by the reputable and non-partisan Encyclopedia Britannica.

My disposition is generally drawn to clinical facts, data, and genuine historical scholarship.


I leave making value judgements to you.

[Doc Dutch]

I think I'll have to go with the people who have spent lifetimes studying historical records from antiquity to modern times.

Jack seeks to insult and attempt to humiliate others. Since he hates women, he uses graphic sexual imagery to try to demean us. Since he hates Christians, he considers calling someone that he KNOWS is not Christian that epithet to be the height of insult.

It's not. My mom was a sainted Christian, a Sunday School teacher. She would have counseled Jack to set aside his rage and hate and come to the Lord. She would have forgiven him for all the ugly things he has said over the years to women on various forums. She would have prayed earnestly for him.

I prefer laughing at him, myself.

Jack needs help....even if it's helping him pack for vacation. His emotional outbursts/habits cloud his judgement.

Your mom's method would have been kinder, but he needs counseling. Group therapy or something to break up that block of hatred he has buried deep inside him.

Agreed on going with the scholars as a source of info over "some guy on the Internet said..." like Trumpers love to do.

[BidenPresident]

I am simply stating historical facts, and these facts are fully supported by the reputable and non-partisan Encyclopedia Britannica.

My disposition is generally drawn to clinical facts, data, and genuine historical scholarship.


I leave making value judgements to you.

I really don't find this discussion productive. You're just proselytizing.

[Doc Dutch]

I am currently reading Augustine on reason and faith.

It is what I told Jack a week ago. In the Greco-Roman tradition, exercising mercy or charity was an individual choice based on practicality. It was situational.

The Judeo-Christian tradition elevated the moral realm to a theologically and morally binding categorical imperative.

If we want to complain about Christianity, I would elevate anti-semitism to the top of the heap, and much of that is because the later gospel and epistle writers wrote things that are clearly anti-jewish

So, believing you are a good person is more important than being a good person.

How do you see that in his post?

FWIW, I think a person has to want to be a good person in order to actually be a good person. You and I have seen people on this forum who obviously have no desire to be a good person, a better person or a logical person. Mostly because most are elderly nutjobs, but also because of attitude.

Attitude helps drive motivation and motivation is what a person needs to act on a chosen desire.

That said, as the OP points out, isn't "good" relative? The Christians thought the kindness, equality thing was good and the Romans thought more like modern Americans: "Fuck you, I've got mine".

While the American attitude is "practical" and "reasonable", as a nation I doubt that attitude is "good" for the nation in competing against other nations.

[BidenPresident]

How do you see that in his post?

FWIW, I think a person has to want to be a good person in order to actually be a good person. You and I have seen people on this forum who obviously have no desire to be a good person, a better person or a logical person. Mostly because most are elderly nutjobs, but also because of attitude.

Attitude helps drive motivation and motivation is what a person needs to act on a chosen desire.

That said, as the OP points out, isn't "good" relative? The Christians thought the kindness, equality thing was good and the Romans thought more like modern Americans: "Fuck you, I've got mine".

No, Romans were pragmatists.

[Doc Dutch]

I am simply stating historical facts, and these facts are fully supported by the reputable and non-partisan Encyclopedia Britannica.

My disposition is generally drawn to clinical facts, data, and genuine historical scholarship.


I leave making value judgements to you.

I really don't find this discussion productive. You're just proselytizing.

Your choice. Disagreed. It's a free country.

About 3/4s of Americans are Christians. About 2B people around the world are Christian with another 2B being Muslim.

Even if you hate Christianity with every part of your being like Jack, if you want to change something, it's important to understand it first. You don't want to understand it because hate isn't about understanding. Hate is about destruction.

IMO, it appears Cypress was raised Russian Orthodox, I don't see him proselytizing or even very religious where religious dogma conflicts with science/reality/fact.

[BidenPresident]

Your choice. Disagreed. It's a free country.

About 3/4s of Americans are Christians. About 2B people around the world are Christian with another 2B being Muslim.

Even if you hate Christianity with every part of your being like Jack, if you want to change something, it's important to understand it first. You don't want to understand it because hate isn't about understanding. Hate is about destruction.

Look, I understand it fine. No need to rehearse this dead issue.

[ThatOwlWoman]

Jack needs help....even if it's helping him pack for vacation. His emotional outbursts/habits cloud his judgement.

Your mom's method would have been kinder, but he needs counseling. Group therapy or something to break up that block of hatred he has buried deep inside him.

Agreed on going with the scholars as a source of info over "some guy on the Internet said..." like Trumpers love to do.

I'm starting to see your POV that he is bipolar. He's been absolutely bonkers the last couple of days. And revealing, very revealing indeed.

[Melchizedek = Michael]

The only remaining question is who is more likely to be correct about the history of ethics in western civilization?


Obscure and anonymous message board poster "Jack"?

Or, the professional historians who contribute to Encyclopedia Britannica?

Sounds snobby!

[Melchizedek = Michael]

Looks like you are doing some voodoo magic here. I thought you were extolling the virtues of 'Christian Compassion'.
As stated before, I doubt Jews felt much of this 'compassion' for the last 2,000 years.
The Spanish Inquisition is a good example of 'Christian Compassion'. Synonymous with Torture and Murder.
Do you really believe South America willingly turned to Roman Catholicism?
Was Puritans hanging Quakers in Boston 'Christian Compassion'?
I asked you before, since you claim to live in California, why are they taking down the Statues of Father Junipero Serra.

The Renaissance marked the beginning of the end for 'Christian Compassion'.

"The Renaissance is a period in European history marking the transition from the Middle Ages to modernity and covering the 15th and 16th centuries, characterized by an effort to revive and surpass ideas and achievements of classical antiquity. Wikipedia"

I don't want to have to go over the same thing with you. I've already concluded you have been brainwashed as a child, and I have no interest in trying to deprogram you.

Never confuse organized religion with a personal relationship with God.

[ThatOwlWoman]

America was a great experiment because we supposedly embraced plurality, and rejected the doctrine of a state church.

I think the reason the Romans of late antiquity, the Byzantine Empire, tsarist Russia embraced the concept of a state church of-sorts is because they were empires who perceived a need for a unifying force or institution to keep their realm stitched together.

Yet the earlier Romans did not see it that way. When they conquered new lands, they allowed the locals to keep their religions, their gods, their language, their customs. They were only required to pay taxes and submit young men to join the legions to defend the empire.

Those who want to see America with only one state religion -- guess which one -- will destroy the freedom of worship (or not) that we enjoy. The problem with forcing YOUR faith on a country is that someday, a bigger guy will come along and force HIS faith on you.

[Doc Dutch]

No, Romans were pragmatists.

No? WTF? "Fuck you, I've got mine" is very pragmatic. Why do you disagree?

[Doc Dutch]

Yet the earlier Romans did not see it that way. When they conquered new lands, they allowed the locals to keep their religions, their gods, their language, their customs. They were only required to pay taxes and submit young men to join the legions to defend the empire.

Those who want to see America with only one state religion -- guess which one -- will destroy the freedom of worship (or not) that we enjoy. The problem with forcing YOUR faith on a country is that someday, a bigger guy will come along and force HIS faith on you.

The Roman Empire lasted about 500 years as a whole and the Eastern Empire lasted another thousand years. What you are describing was an evolution of society since the Romans weren't always forgiving when the religion of a captured state conflicted with Roman ideology. Note the execution of a rabbi circa 30AD.

[Melchizedek = Michael]

Yet the earlier Romans did not see it that way. When they conquered new lands, they allowed the locals to keep their religions, their gods, their language, their customs. They were only required to pay taxes and submit young men to join the legions to defend the empire.

Those who want to see America with only one state religion -- guess which one -- will destroy the freedom of worship (or not) that we enjoy. The problem with forcing YOUR faith on a country is that someday, a bigger guy will come along and force HIS faith on you.

A national religion would be the antithesis of what the founding fathers wanted!
What I see in all these discussions is the confusion between Holy Spirit filled believers.
And organized Christian religion which has nothing to do with true believers and a lot to do with their political beliefs first!