Are numbers created or discovered?

[NiftyNiblick]

I'm not sure what this thread is about,
but legal lottery tickets have really crushed the numbers industry,
forcing former runners to turn to drug dealing instead.

[AProudLefty]

Was giving the bird invented or discovered?

[Cypress]

"How did the Sumerian written counting system change over time?"
https://www.papertrell.com/apps/prev...0_default.html

Could be true. Somebody came up with something along the way to use. You know, like instead of using a hand to dig, somebody came up with 'shovel'.

I'm sure Pi always existed. It took some smart guy to 'discover' it for our use. Kinda' like the Pythagorean Theorem. (3, 4, 5 Triangle)

It seems reasonable that, having ten digits on our hands, humans societies would have all ultimately come up with natural counting numbers.

As soon as commerce started, it even seems humans would have come up with rational numbers, because fractions become an integral part of commercial transaction.

The interesting thing is why human societies became interested in studying numbers for their own sake, in an abstract way, outside of mere convenience for commerce and counting.

The irrational numbers, the various concepts of infinity, the transcendental numbers are not something we would have stumbled across strictly due to the needs of commerce, and there are a lot of open questions about them today.

[AProudLefty]

It seems reasonable that, having ten digits on our hands, humans societies would have all ultimately come up with natural counting numbers.

As soon as commerce started, it even seems humans would have come up with rational numbers, because fractions become an integral part of commercial transaction.

The interesting thing is why human societies became interested in studying numbers for their own sake, in an abstract way, outside of mere convenience for commerce and counting.

The irrational numbers, the various concepts of infinity, the transcendental numbers are not something we would have stumbled across strictly due to the needs of commerce, and there are a lot of open questions about them today.

We needed something like calculus.

[Cypress]

We needed something like calculus.

Yes we did, but humans were studying numbers in an abstract way for their own sake, independent of commerce or engineering, long before Newton and Leinez invented the calculus.

Supposedly, the Pythagoreans and ancient Indian mathematicians saw something almost mystical in numbers, that they somehow represented a deeper truth.

[Cypress]

We needed something like calculus.

You inspired me to order some remedial calculus material from the socialist public library, because I am just so bloody rusty at it.

[AProudLefty]

You inspired me to order some remedial calculus material from the socialist public library, because I am just so bloody rusty at it.

I'm rusty too. LOL.

[Cypress]

I'm rusty too. LOL.

I just want to refresh my memory about the basics. Taking the class for credit in college was painstaking work!

[Cypress]

Today is national Pi day, March 14.

[Melchizedek = Michael]

Today is national Pi day, March 14.

OIP (4).jpg

[Cypress]

OIP (4).jpg

I like blueberry Pi.

[Melchizedek = Michael]

I like blueberry Pi.

Coincidentally I found my thrill on blueberry hill!

[Mott the Hoople]

My sense is that the existence of Pi, e, Feigenbaum constant, golden ratio, et. al suggest that numbers are an abstract Platonic reality which exist independently of human consciousness.

I would say that question presents a false dichotomy. It was both.

[Cypress]

I would say that question presents a false dichotomy. It was both.

I see what you are getting at. The debate seems to be whether these numbers exist independently of human consciousness, or if they are mathmatical derivations of our intellect

In a purely mathmatical sense, we will never actually know e or Pi because they are irrational numbers, and their precise value can never be known no matter how many decimal places we extend it

[Mott the Hoople]

I see what you are getting at. The debate seems to be whether these numbers exist independently of human consciousness, or if they are mathmatical derivations of our intellect

In a purely mathmatical sense, we will never actually know e or Pi because they are irrational numbers, and their precise value can never be known no matter how many decimal places we extend it

Yes but keep in mind that in mathematics pi is an irrational number and an abstract concept but in the real world it’s also an easily observable emperical fact.