Anyone still believe American Exceptionalism!?

[goat]

I tend to believe America was never Exceptional went from Institutional racism against minorities like Jim Crow right into Institutional racism against Whites like Affirmative Action.

At it's most exceptional point was 1950s America with a sense of pride & patriotism for defeating Hitler.

Which soon was taken advantage of to submit Whites.

10,000 John Deere workers (white, black, brown; republican, democrat, independent; male, female, trans) turned down 2 contracts forced on them by their corrupt UAW union and walked the picket line for 6 weeks until they got a contract that protects the pay and benefits of future employees.

People power is forcing the pendulum to swing in favor of workers.

[NiftyNiblick]

Yes sir. I guess I’m worthy of that “Believerism” label. I am fortunate to have traveled several places around the world, am immensely interested in learning about life in others. Form my travels and my learning there is no other nation, generally and no other place, specifically that I’d rather live. So it’s that “If we're all in the place that fits us the most comfortably, we're doing equally well, right?”

I have seen the American dream play out too many times to discount it, for my own family to those living around me.

My Choctaw grandmother raised 11 children (8 boys 3 girls) of her own. She was the second wife of my grandfather who had fathered 10 children by his first wife. He lost her and several of his young children in the flu epidemic in the early 1900’s. Grandma was swindled out of her tribal allotment by the (white) local grocer. She lost 150 acres over a $50 grocery bill. Talking about it years later she just said, “We had to eat though.” But she was the person who encouraged her half-Choctaw kids to play by the rules that existed if they wanted a better life. I don’t know if that was forgiving or she just realized what was necessary for survival?

Most of them did. Several opened business of their own … the two younger ones got degrees even. My youngest uncle on mom’s side just retired from being on the tribal council a couple of months ago…a very prestigious job he’s had for a while. Basically they came from nothing to doing well working by a simple formula (advice from my grandmother): “Be determined, keep your nose clean and work hard.” She also said, “If it’s going to happen you have to make it happen … don’t expect anyone else to.”

Now my mom married a hillbilly from the hills of Oklahoma who had joined the Army to better his life, but he lived by the same motto…and passed that on to my siblings and me and I have used the same phrases to encourage the kids I have taught (and currently teach) to spur them on to accomplish whatever. If you’ve read many of my posts you know I teach a lot of welfare dependent white kids and kids of native descent. It is so encouraging when one of them breaks the cycle of government dependence. Yes, I still talk about the American dream because I still believe in it.

I’m sorry, this post got longer than I intended but I get excited when talking about the opportunities here for my white trash and native students. Yes, my ancestors were done wrong, generally speaking and my grandmother was done wrong specifically speaking, but I know of no other system where the “conquered” can grow along side and be as successful or even more successful than the “conquering.” It’s not such a terrible system.

Never, ever apologize for expressing your thoughts as fully as you wish to do so. Especially when you do so that cogently.

Here's my thing:

I've been to Asia, but I didn't see downtown Tokyo, Seoul, or Teipei. What I saw means I've never seen Asia that I'd be interested in. It was hell for me.

I have seen Europe, however. They don't have as much land, and so property is more expensive. So is beef except in Spain.

But they have all the freedoms that we have except for carrying an AK47 downtown.
Nobody tells a woman that she can't have an abortion.
They have national healthcare.
They have affordable education.
They have a much more robust social safety net.
They have at least as much art and culture if not more.
They have more union represented jobs and better labor laws.
And they have much more and better public transportation.

So at this point, Mr. leaning, I have to ask you...
am I correct in assuming that these things mean less to you than the country life you enjoy in Oklahoma?

Because if that's true, no problem. We love what we love.
Where the issue comes in for me is, Why is being "exceptional" in terms of social regressiveness so valuable?
If it is, it is, but try to understand why it isn't for me.

And we think differently as well.

In Boston, poor people having eleven and twelve children is considered socially irresponsible and not even minimally admired. It's considered appalling.
Irresponsible procreation could very well be the biggest single cause of human misery globally.

But Boston is not Oklahoma, and as we agree, "Different strokes..."

[leaningright]

Never, ever apologize for expressing your thoughts as fully as you wish to do so. Especially when you do so that cogently.

Here's my thing:

I've been to Asia, but I didn't see downtown Tokyo, Seoul, or Teipei. What I saw means I've never seen Asia that I'd be interested in. It was hell for me.

I have seen Europe, however. They don't have as much land, and so property is more expensive. So is beef except in Spain.

But they have all the freedoms that we have except for carrying an AK47 downtown.
Nobody tells a woman that she can't have an abortion.
They have national healthcare.
They have affordable education.
They have a much more robust social safety net.
They have at least as much art and culture if not more.
They have more union represented jobs and better labor laws.
And they have much more and better public transportation.

So at this point, Mr. leaning, I have to ask you...
am I correct in assuming that these things mean less to you than the country life you enjoy in Oklahoma?

Because if that's true, no problem. We love what we love.
Where the issue comes in for me is, Why is being "exceptional" in terms of social regressiveness so valuable?
If it is, it is, but try to understand why it isn't for me.

And we think differently as well.

In Boston, poor people having eleven and twelve children is considered socially irresponsible and not even minimally admired. It's considered appalling.
Irresponsible procreation could very well be the biggest single cause of human misery globally.

But Boston is not Oklahoma, and as we agree, "Different strokes..."

I do understand the differences in ways of thinking much better now than I did in the mid 90’s when I started frequenting these boards. I have met many decent folks on both sides of the political aisle in those years. There are people on this site that I’ve “known” longer than I’ve known my wife. Cawacko, Damocles, Phantasmal to name a few of my favorites. But that’s more why I started visiting political message boards … to learn more about why/how “the other side” thinks.

It’s been successful for me. And I try to share some of the why/how others think with those who are bullishly, hatefully conservative in my circle of friends here at home, because quite honestly folks here tend never to travel and learn about other cultures or about how people’s lives in cities benefit from some democratic policy. I’m thinking specifically of public transportation here.

You’ll notice that my descriptor on my name is “Conservative Democrat.” I am supportive of many social improvements through fair taxation. Things like healthcare can and should be made more affordable. Education assistance efforts targeting the middle class need to be implemented somehow. As I have learned this year the poor can go and the rich can go but if you’re a middle class family you’re going to be stuck with a high bill each semester. Fortunately the wife and I are debt free and able to help our son pay for his education.

Maybe somehow our safety net could use bolstering but it seems pretty adequate for at least the people I have seen need to use it. As you might suspect, I am an advocate for adequately funding PK-12 public education. Believe me, I get some of those kids from parents who thought they’d “homeschool” for a while and they can’t convince me that any schooling took place. I’ve had a couple come in 7th or 8th grade who were where they should be but it’s rare. So there are at least some things on the Democratic side that I could support.

The problem I have finding candidates on the National scale to support is that the Dan Borens (a democratic house member from OK a few years back), Tulsi Gabbards, Joe Manchins, etc. are marginalized and vilified if they take a moderate stance on an issue.

So we continue with different strokes being the theme song. I am concerned that it seems we are in an “all or nothing” political mode right now but I still have faith in the US to find our way forward. I also find that it is better for my psyche to not talk politics so much at this point in my life and focus on the things I like to do. Hence my continued posting in your “MySpace” thread.

[T. A. Gardner]

Here's my thing:

I've been to Asia, but I didn't see downtown Tokyo, Seoul, or Teipei. What I saw means I've never seen Asia that I'd be interested in. It was hell for me.

I have seen Europe, however. They don't have as much land, and so property is more expensive. So is beef except in Spain.

But they have all the freedoms that we have except for carrying an AK47 downtown.
Nobody tells a woman that she can't have an abortion.
They have national healthcare.
They have affordable education.
They have a much more robust social safety net.
They have at least as much art and culture if not more.
They have more union represented jobs and better labor laws.
And they have much more and better public transportation.

So at this point, Mr. leaning, I have to ask you...
am I correct in assuming that these things mean less to you than the country life you enjoy in Oklahoma?

Because if that's true, no problem. We love what we love.
Where the issue comes in for me is, Why is being "exceptional" in terms of social regressiveness so valuable?
If it is, it is, but try to understand why it isn't for me.

And we think differently as well.

In Boston, poor people having eleven and twelve children is considered socially irresponsible and not even minimally admired. It's considered appalling.
Irresponsible procreation could very well be the biggest single cause of human misery globally.

But Boston is not Oklahoma, and as we agree, "Different strokes..."

Land is more expensive in most of Europe, and the controls on it by government far more onerous.
They don't have "all the freedoms" we have. In England for example, you have no right to self-defense, nor any right to not incriminate yourself if arrested.
Andorra, Liechtenstein, Malta, Monaco, Poland, and San Marino within the EU all have restrictive abortion laws to include in some cases outright bans.
Education varies in Europe. Most nations have a two-tier K-12 system in place. Those that do well on testing and those with means generally are put on a college track while those that don't meet those standards are put on a vocational-technical track and not prepared for college. This is the standard, for example, in Germany and Austria. The university system in Europe is less robust than it is in the US.
The social safety net in Europe comes at a high cost in taxes and often provides indifferent quality of life.
In Europe, unions are much stronger and difficult to enter. In many parts of Europe entry is only assured to those who already have family or close friends in the union to vouch for them.
Their public transit systems are larger, but come with a high cost in taxes, and they're really no more efficient than those in the Urban US. In rural areas of Europe, public transit is spotty at best, just like in the US.

I'll add, that I really dislike the European electrical system and associated code that goes with it. I've had to work on these systems and they are nowhere near as safe and usable as the US electrical system under the NEC or IRC are. I know it's a minor point, but it is one thing among many that shows Europe isn't somehow magically doing things better than the US across the board.

[danielpalos]

Providing for the general welfare is a social power delegated to Congress, providing for the general warfare is not.

[leaningright]

Education varies in Europe. Most nations have a two-tier K-12 system in place. Those that do well on testing and those with means generally are put on a college track while those that don't meet those standards are put on a vocational-technical track and not prepared for college. This is the standard, for example, in Germany and Austria. The university system in Europe is less robust than it is in the US.

This is what I have noticed about the educational systems in Europe. I am not opposed to segregation by ability (what you call two-tiered) when it comes to education, as I have outlined before on here before. The problem I see we’d have to deal with is how to handle the “those with means” part.

[T. A. Gardner]

This is what I have noticed about the educational systems in Europe. I am not opposed to segregation by ability (what you call two-tiered) when it comes to education, as I have outlined before on here before. The problem I see we’d have to deal with is how to handle the “those with means” part.

Anywhere in the world, those with means (aka The Rich) are going to get more opportunities for education, even if their children are idiots, than the average person. Money talks. That's nothing new and I doubt it's going to change any time soon. For the rest of society, in most countries there is a two-tier system in place. For the smarter kids they go through a school program preparing them for college or in some cases technical trades requiring more education. For those that don't make that cut, they go to school to either become functionally literate and get menial jobs, or are prepared and go to a trade school to get a decent blue-collar job in some trade.
In the US, almost the entire public school system is geared towards college preparation with only a passing sop to vocational training and the trades.

[leaningright]

Anywhere in the world, those with means (aka The Rich) are going to get more opportunities for education, even if their children are idiots, than the average person. Money talks. That's nothing new and I doubt it's going to change any time soon. For the rest of society, in most countries there is a two-tier system in place. For the smarter kids they go through a school program preparing them for college or in some cases technical trades requiring more education. For those that don't make that cut, they go to school to either become functionally literate and get menial jobs, or are prepared and go to a trade school to get a decent blue-collar job in some trade.
In the US, almost the entire public school system is geared towards college preparation with only a passing sop to vocational training and the trades.

Yes, this describes it well. And the bolded needs to be tweaked, IMO.