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Thread: We might as well outsource America's public schools to Red China

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    Quote Originally Posted by Damocles View Post
    I get they don't like that their kid might read a book entitled Gender Queer, I can even understand why they may be upset about it, but the reality is kids almost never grab a book like that in their school library. Those that actually check out books from their school library get books that are fun to read, not boring AF books like Gender Queer..
    How is it "reality"? Do you have statistical evidence regarding the number of times those titles were checked out by kids?

    If not, how do you know kids think those kinds of books are "boring AF"?

    We don't fundamentally disagree, BTW.

    I believe that taxpayer-funded education is indefensible, unacceptable and undesirable at any level because it is a state-sponsored and controlled apparatus that government has no right to be involved in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Damocles View Post
    I think parents should understand that if they want to get to it they will, and pretending otherwise is just ignoring reality. Prepare them for what they will see, don't try to control it, the tighter that grip goes the more sand slips through the fingers and the more the child will simply do it and then keep it secret.
    "They're going to do it anyway"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    Was gay pedo porn available in your school's library, and if so, did she know about it?
    There were fictional books that some folks even found that described sex in their various forms available in the school library. Would you consider it porn? I don't know. But yeah, curious kids could find that subject in the library even in the late 80s... Shoot in Junior High we had Billy who had an incredible capacity for finding it, he would mark the pages with paper clips... frickin' weird kid he was.
    Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but rather we have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
    - -- Aristotle

    Believe nothing on the faith of traditions, even though they have been held in honor for many generations and in diverse places. Do not believe a thing because many people speak of it. Do not believe on the faith of the sages of the past. Do not believe what you yourself have imagined, persuading yourself that a God inspires you. Believe nothing on the sole authority of your masters and priests. After examination, believe what you yourself have tested and found to be reasonable, and conform your conduct thereto.
    - -- The Buddha

    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
    - -- Aristotle

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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    How is it "reality"? Do you have statistical evidence regarding the number of times those titles were checked out by kids?

    If not, how do you know kids think those kinds of books are "boring AF"?

    We don't fundamentally disagree, BTW.

    I believe that taxpayer-funded education is indefensible, unacceptable and undesirable at any level because it is a state-sponsored and controlled apparatus that government has no right to be involved in.
    Do you have statistical information on that, you demand what you have not provided and expect that to mean something special?

    Do you have any memory of the books you checked out of the library at that time? Do you even think kids check out books from their libraries at the same level we did when books were about the only way we had to get reading material?

    Seriously, do you pay any attention to the advance of technology in the world today?
    Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but rather we have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
    - -- Aristotle

    Believe nothing on the faith of traditions, even though they have been held in honor for many generations and in diverse places. Do not believe a thing because many people speak of it. Do not believe on the faith of the sages of the past. Do not believe what you yourself have imagined, persuading yourself that a God inspires you. Believe nothing on the sole authority of your masters and priests. After examination, believe what you yourself have tested and found to be reasonable, and conform your conduct thereto.
    - -- The Buddha

    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
    - -- Aristotle

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    Quote Originally Posted by Damocles View Post
    There were fictional books that some folks even found that described sex in their various forms available in the school library. Would you consider it porn? I don't know. But yeah, curious kids could find that subject in the library even in the late 80s... Shoot in Junior High we had Billy who had an incredible capacity for finding it, he would mark the pages with paper clips... frickin' weird kid he was.
    You didn't answer the questions that you were asked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    "They're going to do it anyway"?
    That isn't what I said, so this is a simple straw man argument. While I get why you go there, it simply means that I am getting to you, I know, it's frustrating when a civil libertarian gets into a conversation about the 1st Amendment and why you don't get to control what books go in a government library... because you know they are right.
    Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but rather we have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
    - -- Aristotle

    Believe nothing on the faith of traditions, even though they have been held in honor for many generations and in diverse places. Do not believe a thing because many people speak of it. Do not believe on the faith of the sages of the past. Do not believe what you yourself have imagined, persuading yourself that a God inspires you. Believe nothing on the sole authority of your masters and priests. After examination, believe what you yourself have tested and found to be reasonable, and conform your conduct thereto.
    - -- The Buddha

    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
    - -- Aristotle

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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    You didn't answer the questions that you were asked.
    No, I did. I implied that I do not have those statistics, and then asked you if you happened to have them since you seem to deem it important. Do not expect from others what you are unwilling to provide. If you don't have the statistics yourself you are simply an idiot asking a question for which you do not have the answer and have not proven any point whatsoever other than you are unprepared to let the constitution stand when talking about what books a government allows in a library.

    Since your life experience leads you to believe that every kid will check out Gender Queer and read it voraciously, I need some backup stats that show you have a point.
    Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but rather we have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
    - -- Aristotle

    Believe nothing on the faith of traditions, even though they have been held in honor for many generations and in diverse places. Do not believe a thing because many people speak of it. Do not believe on the faith of the sages of the past. Do not believe what you yourself have imagined, persuading yourself that a God inspires you. Believe nothing on the sole authority of your masters and priests. After examination, believe what you yourself have tested and found to be reasonable, and conform your conduct thereto.
    - -- The Buddha

    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
    - -- Aristotle

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    Quote Originally Posted by Damocles View Post
    Do you have statistical information on that, you demand what you have not provided and expect that to mean something special?
    I don't need to statistical evidence for my opinion, do I?

    I'll be glad to discuss that, if you wish.

    You made two declarative statements, and want me to accept them as valid facts when we both know that you have no idea how many times those titles have been read by kids whose tastes in reading you couldn't possibly know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damocles View Post
    Do you have any memory of the books you checked out of the library at that time?
    Whatever I might tell you is unverifiable, so I won't insult your intelligence by posting personal anecdotes on the forum. You have my email address if you want to talk about it offline, although the same issue with verification applies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damocles View Post
    Do you even think kids check out books from their libraries at the same level we did when books were about the only way we had to get reading material? Seriously, do you pay any attention to the advance of technology in the world today?
    Seriously? Are you arguing that it's OK to make gay pedo porn books available to kids in taxpayer-funded schools because you don't think they will bother to read them?

  9. #39 | Top
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damocles View Post
    Since your life experience leads you to believe that every kid will check out Gender Queer and read it voraciously, I need some backup stats that show you have a point.
    I said nothing of the sort.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Damocles View Post
    That isn't what I said, so this is a simple straw man argument. While I get why you go there, it simply means that I am getting to you, I know, it's frustrating when a civil libertarian gets into a conversation about the 1st Amendment and why you don't get to control what books go in a government library... because you know they are right.


    This is what you said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damocles View Post
    I think parents should understand that if they want to get to it they will, and pretending otherwise is just ignoring reality. Prepare them for what they will see, don't try to control it, the tighter that grip goes the more sand slips through the fingers and the more the child will simply do it and then keep it secret.
    If you didn't mean to imply that "they're going to do it anyway", what did you mean? That's why I asked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Damocles View Post
    No, I did.
    Please allow me to refresh your memory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damocles View Post
    My mother had no right nor capability to control what I read. She is an uber-Christian too... I never even had her try to limit what I read.. seriously, never.
    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    Was gay pedo porn available in your school's library, and if so, did she know about it?
    Is your answer to the first question yes, or no?

    Is your answer to the second question yes, or no?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Damocles View Post
    That was not the point. I used these two because neither will care that they were mentioned and we wouldn't get sidetracked by nonsense like this. My point is trying to control the non-fiction offered in a library at a public school is allowing the government to have way too much control over stuff we have a constitution that says they have no control whatsoever over.

    I get they don't like that their kid might read a book entitled Gender Queer, I can even understand why they may be upset about it, but the reality is kids almost never grab a book like that in their school library. Those that actually check out books from their school library get books that are fun to read, not boring AF books like Gender Queer..

    Anyway, we shouldn't be trying to control what is available for them to read, we should simply know it is there and give them guidance if you find out that is what they are reading... rather than an attempt at control which almost invariably would make them actually want to read the books you didn't want them to...
    Available for them to read, not a problem. On the other hand, what they are required to read can become a problem. Our kids in K - 12 above all else should be being prepared to be functional, productive, adults. Knowing what all the letters in LGBTPDQRSTUVW... or whatever doesn't move us towards that end. Education shouldn't be political or a game of trivial pursuit.
    When we have kids graduating high school that can't read a ruler, can't balance a checkbook, can't make change out of a cash register (just saw that one a week ago), etc., there's a problem. I could give a flying fuck if they know anything about alternative sexual proclivities. That's an irrelevancy compared to being able to read, write, and do math. Knowing something about our nation and history is necessary to have a functional society too and it shouldn't be taught as a series of lessons about how evil their nation is and how they have to atone for the sins of their long dead ancestors.

  13. #43 | Top
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    I don't need to statistical evidence for my opinion, do I?
    You do if you expect statistical evidence of my opinion. Tell me why I should think every kid that you don't want to read these non fiction books will rush in to read them. Statistical information that show me that I should worry about my kids rushing in to read Gender Queer would certainly support your argument.

    I'll be glad to discuss that, if you wish.

    You made two declarative statements, and want me to accept them as valid facts when we both know that you have no idea how many times those titles have been read by kids whose tastes in reading you couldn't possibly know.
    I made two statements of opinion, based on life experience, you know.. being one of the few kids back in the day that actually went to the library for reading material and an owner of a fantastic memory.

    Whatever I might tell you is unverifiable, so I won't insult your intelligence by posting personal anecdotes on the forum. You have my email address if you want to talk about it offline, although the same issue with verification applies.
    Not really. I trust you to tell me the truth about what you checked out from the library. Why would you lie? Is it so important to you to be "right" that you would make up naughty books you checked out from a fictional middle school library?

    Seriously? Are you arguing that it's OK to make gay pedo porn books available to kids in taxpayer-funded schools because you don't think they will bother to read them?
    I am telling you that it is less important than this urgency you seem to have on the subject because they are not likely to read them other than as a joke. I am also tell you that we really have no right to use government power to limit the type of books the kids can find in the government funded library because we have a pesky constitution to consider.
    Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but rather we have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
    - -- Aristotle

    Believe nothing on the faith of traditions, even though they have been held in honor for many generations and in diverse places. Do not believe a thing because many people speak of it. Do not believe on the faith of the sages of the past. Do not believe what you yourself have imagined, persuading yourself that a God inspires you. Believe nothing on the sole authority of your masters and priests. After examination, believe what you yourself have tested and found to be reasonable, and conform your conduct thereto.
    - -- The Buddha

    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
    - -- Aristotle

  14. #44 | Top
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    Quote Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    Available for them to read, not a problem.
    Wouldn't the fact that a government school makes them available problematic since it may create the perception that the government is tacitly endorsing a particular view of sexuality which is illegal?

    For example, would it be OK - in your opinion - for a government school to make printed materials giving instructions for IED manufacture available to children in the library?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Damocles View Post
    You do if you expect statistical evidence of my opinion.
    This is an opinion? Bolded for emphasis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damocles View Post
    I get they don't like that their kid might read a book entitled Gender Queer, I can even understand why they may be upset about it, but the reality is kids almost never grab a book like that in their school library. Those that actually check out books from their school library get books that are fun to read, not boring AF books like Gender Queer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Damocles View Post
    Tell me why I should think every kid that you don't want to read these non fiction books will rush in to read them.
    I don't recall attempting to influence your thinking. I do recall asking you why you made what appear to be two statements of fact with no apparent statistical justification.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damocles View Post
    I made two statements of opinion, based on life experience, you know.. being one of the few kids back in the day that actually went to the library for reading material and an owner of a fantastic memory.
    Well, perhaps I might be able to suggest that you consider using modifiers when you express what you think are opinions in the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damocles View Post
    I trust you to tell me the truth about what you checked out from the library.
    I'm flattered by your trust; however, as I previously reminded you, I avoid posting personal anecdotes on the forum whenever possible. I would be glad to tell you stories, but not here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damocles View Post
    Why would you lie? Is it so important to you to be "right" that you would make up naughty books you checked out from a fictional middle school library?
    It's not a question of lying. It's because unverifiable statements of fact aren't logically acceptable as evidence in debate. Arguments are claims backed by logic that is supported by verifiable, objective evidence available to all parties. Whether or not such proofs are valid is also debatable.

    An expression of opinion is not logically subject to the same stricture, in my experience. Perhaps I am too didactic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damocles View Post
    I am telling you that it is less important than this urgency you seem to have on the subject because they are not likely to read them other than as a joke. I am also tell you that we really have no right to use government power to limit the type of books the kids can find in the government funded library because we have a pesky constitution to consider.
    I have already shared my general agreement with you on the topic of government-funded education; at least I perceive that we basically agree.

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