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Thread: Facts Trump Democrat's claims on Donald’s economy

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    Default Facts Trump Democrat's claims on Donald’s economy

    This is a duplicate post for those who are thread banned in the regular forum but want to have an honest debate without insults.

    Excellent article:

    Facts Trump Dems’ claims on Donald’s economy

    When President Donald Trump took office in 2017, economists around the world had accepted the fact that the US economy had entered the “new normal” where economic growth would be low, and wage growth nonexistent. Trump’s team argued that deregulation, trade policy and tax cuts could bring us back to the old normal or, more memorably, make America great again.

    The economy’s response to these policies confirmed everything Trump said would happen, and the Democrats’ rush to reverse his policies with their misnamed “Build Back Better” plan is the highest form of science denial.

    Democrats argued, for example, that the corporate tax cuts would lead to a collapse in tax revenue. That hypothetical collapse is a key excuse for the huge tax hike they now contemplate. Yet corporate tax revenue in 2017 was, according to the Congressional Budget Office, $297 billion. The CBO now estimates that 2021 revenue will be $370 billion.

    Even if one adjusts for economic growth by expressing the numbers as a share of GDP, corporate revenue has climbed proportionally by 7.2 percent. Just as Trump promised, the dynamic effects of the corporate tax reduction led to revenue going up, not down.

    The point was not to make businesses rich. Trump’s team argued that the explosion in the business sector would benefit workers, famously promising that a typical family’s wages would jump $4,000 in three to five years. That assertion was widely ridiculed by the same Democratic economists now pushing the Build Back Better plan. Yet before the pandemic struck, wages were well ahead of that schedule, jumping about 50 percent more than that, $6,000.

    The booming economy especially benefited those less fortunate. Seven million people were lifted off of food stamps. Poverty rates for Hispanic and African Americans reached record lows, as did their unemployment rates. Income inequality declined by the most in decades. Blue-collar wages rose faster than white-collar wages.

    Wealth inequality even declined, with the bottom half of the wealth distribution seeing their wealth increase by 40 percent, in part because home ownership skyrocketed. The share of African Americans owning their own homes climbed from 41.7 percent to 46.4 percent.

    One could go on and on. Against that backdrop, the Build Back Better campaign is nothing short of a factually challenged policy reversal that promises to harm the American worker.

    The massive corporate tax hike planned will chase jobs, incomes and factories overseas, while the green spending binge accomplishes practically nothing. Democrats will lift the top marginal income tax rate to the highest in the developed world, penalizing noncorporate businesses even more than corporations. Trump killed the “new normal” for a while, but Biden is intent on bringing it back.

    What stuns the most is the profound lack of intellectual curiosity required to roll back these policies. Trump’s team had a theory of how things would turn out if their tax cuts were passed. The subsequent data matched that theory.

    If Democrats don’t want to give those policies credit, then at the very least, they should put forward their own theory for why the lower and middle classes flourished after the tax cuts. Why is corporate tax revenue so much higher now despite the lower rates? Why did income inequality decline so much, while incomes climbed five times more in the Trump years than they did under President Barack Obama? Why will lifting marginal tax rates increase capital formation as opposed to magnifying supply disruptions and increasing inflation?

    Of course, there is no reasonable alternative explanation grounded in economic science. Which makes support for the bill despite all of the latest evidence unconscionable.


    https://nypost.com/2021/11/17/10-deb...nhouse-devine/
    "When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."


    A lie doesn't become the truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good just because it is accepted by a majority.
    Author: Booker T. Washington



    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
    Unless you just can't stand the idea of "ni**ers" teaching white kids.


    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    Address the topic, not other posters.

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    but they DID posit a theory: RACIST WHITE PRIVILIDGE !

    ok, not much of a theory and silly to boot but thats their thing.
    "Those who vote decide nothing. Those who count the vote decide everything." Joseph Stalin
    The USA has lost WWIV to China with no other weapons but China Virus and some cash to buy democrats.

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    Democrats argued, for example, that the corporate tax cuts would lead to a collapse in tax revenue. That hypothetical collapse is a key excuse for the huge tax hike they now contemplate. Yet corporate tax revenue in 2017 was, according to the Congressional Budget Office, $297 billion. The CBO now estimates that 2021 revenue will be $370 billion.
    How old is this ridiculous piece of garbage?

    The CBO is not currently estimating 2021 revenues from corporate income taxes will be $370 billion.

    In February of 2020 the predicted 2021 revenues from corporate income taxes would be 257 billion.
    https://www.cbo.gov/publication/56073#_idTextAnchor010

    In February 2021, CBO predicts that for 2021 the revenues from corporate income taxes would be 164 billion
    https://www.cbo.gov/publication/57043#_idTextAnchor003


    The GAO in the US Budget documents is predicting it will be 284 billion in 2021.
    https://www.govinfo.gov/app/details/...21-TAB/context


    Edit - In July the CBO increased its estimate of revenues from Corporate income taxes to $238 billion
    https://www.cbo.gov/publication/57373#_idTextAnchor011

    So where exactly is the author of that piece getting their supposed GAO numbers?
    Last edited by Poor Richard Saunders; 11-18-2021 at 01:57 PM.
    Pardoning the Bad, is injuring the Good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Celticguy View Post
    but they DID posit a theory: RACIST WHITE PRIVILIDGE !

    ok, not much of a theory and silly to boot but thats their thing.
    "When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."


    A lie doesn't become the truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good just because it is accepted by a majority.
    Author: Booker T. Washington



    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
    Unless you just can't stand the idea of "ni**ers" teaching white kids.


    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    Address the topic, not other posters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poor Richard Saunders View Post
    How old is this ridiculous piece of garbage?
    If you had read the article, you would see it was dated November 17, 2021. Just because you say it is garbage, doesn't make it garbage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poor Richard Saunders View Post
    The CBO is not currently estimating 2021 revenues from corporate income taxes will be $370 billion.

    In February of 2020 the predicted 2021 revenues from corporate income taxes would be 257 billion.
    https://www.cbo.gov/publication/56073#_idTextAnchor010

    In February 2021, CBO predicts that for 2021 the revenues from corporate income taxes would be 164 billion
    https://www.cbo.gov/publication/57043#_idTextAnchor003


    The GAO in the US Budget documents is predicting it will be 284 billion in 2021.
    https://www.govinfo.gov/app/details/...21-TAB/context


    Edit - In July the CBO increased its estimate of revenues from Corporate income taxes to $238 billion
    https://www.cbo.gov/publication/57373#_idTextAnchor011

    So where exactly is the author of that piece getting their supposed GAO numbers?
    The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) now estimates that the federal government received $370 billion in corporate tax revenue over the past year (fiscal year 2021), matching the record high level from 2007. This is a 75 percent increase over the previous year’s total, reflecting a rebound in corporate profits and the broader economy.
    https://taxfoundation.org/corporate-...lections-2021/

    So other than flailing, looking uninformed and triggered, is there anything else we can factually correct for you?
    "When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."


    A lie doesn't become the truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good just because it is accepted by a majority.
    Author: Booker T. Washington



    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
    Unless you just can't stand the idea of "ni**ers" teaching white kids.


    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    Address the topic, not other posters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    This is a duplicate post for those who are thread banned in the regular forum but want to have an honest debate without insults.

    Excellent article:

    Facts Trump Dems’ claims on Donald’s economy

    When President Donald Trump took office in 2017, economists around the world had accepted the fact that the US economy had entered the “new normal” where economic growth would be low, and wage growth nonexistent. Trump’s team argued that deregulation, trade policy and tax cuts could bring us back to the old normal or, more memorably, make America great again.

    The economy’s response to these policies confirmed everything Trump said would happen, and the Democrats’ rush to reverse his policies with their misnamed “Build Back Better” plan is the highest form of science denial.

    Democrats argued, for example, that the corporate tax cuts would lead to a collapse in tax revenue. That hypothetical collapse is a key excuse for the huge tax hike they now contemplate. Yet corporate tax revenue in 2017 was, according to the Congressional Budget Office, $297 billion. The CBO now estimates that 2021 revenue will be $370 billion.

    Even if one adjusts for economic growth by expressing the numbers as a share of GDP, corporate revenue has climbed proportionally by 7.2 percent. Just as Trump promised, the dynamic effects of the corporate tax reduction led to revenue going up, not down.

    The point was not to make businesses rich. Trump’s team argued that the explosion in the business sector would benefit workers, famously promising that a typical family’s wages would jump $4,000 in three to five years. That assertion was widely ridiculed by the same Democratic economists now pushing the Build Back Better plan. Yet before the pandemic struck, wages were well ahead of that schedule, jumping about 50 percent more than that, $6,000.

    The booming economy especially benefited those less fortunate. Seven million people were lifted off of food stamps. Poverty rates for Hispanic and African Americans reached record lows, as did their unemployment rates. Income inequality declined by the most in decades. Blue-collar wages rose faster than white-collar wages.

    Wealth inequality even declined, with the bottom half of the wealth distribution seeing their wealth increase by 40 percent, in part because home ownership skyrocketed. The share of African Americans owning their own homes climbed from 41.7 percent to 46.4 percent.

    One could go on and on. Against that backdrop, the Build Back Better campaign is nothing short of a factually challenged policy reversal that promises to harm the American worker.

    The massive corporate tax hike planned will chase jobs, incomes and factories overseas, while the green spending binge accomplishes practically nothing. Democrats will lift the top marginal income tax rate to the highest in the developed world, penalizing noncorporate businesses even more than corporations. Trump killed the “new normal” for a while, but Biden is intent on bringing it back.

    What stuns the most is the profound lack of intellectual curiosity required to roll back these policies. Trump’s team had a theory of how things would turn out if their tax cuts were passed. The subsequent data matched that theory.

    If Democrats don’t want to give those policies credit, then at the very least, they should put forward their own theory for why the lower and middle classes flourished after the tax cuts. Why is corporate tax revenue so much higher now despite the lower rates? Why did income inequality decline so much, while incomes climbed five times more in the Trump years than they did under President Barack Obama? Why will lifting marginal tax rates increase capital formation as opposed to magnifying supply disruptions and increasing inflation?

    Of course, there is no reasonable alternative explanation grounded in economic science. Which makes support for the bill despite all of the latest evidence unconscionable.


    https://nypost.com/2021/11/17/10-deb...nhouse-devine/
    1) I am for eliminating corporate tax.
    Corporations just pass on the tax cost to their employees/shareholders or consumers.
    It is not a 'free tax'...like so many on the left seem to think.


    2) but this notion that many on the right have that the economy 'boomed' under Trump is wrong.

    Even ignoring the Covid Depression (which was not his fault)?
    The average GDP growth under Trump during his first 3 fiscal years was only 2.5%.
    https://www.thebalance.com/gdp-growt...erages-4801102
    I know of no respected economists that would call that 'booming'.

    And Trump promised 4% GDP growth)
    https://www.businessinsider.com/trum...se-2017-1?op=1

    For comparison?
    Reagan averaged 3.6% growth.
    Clinton averaged 3.8% growth.
    Even Obama and Bush averaged more GDP growth per year during their terms.

    And GDP growth is the standard means of measuring macroeconomic growth.
    I bet you even Trump will tell you that.



    Once again - I despise both parties.

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    The New York Post is another Murdoch publication and like Fox is hardly a reliable source of economic info. Trump accomplished little unless giving tax relief to the unneedy is an accomplishment.


    Joe is doing fine. Trump even failed to do infrastructure, a bipartisan supported goal.


    https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...luate-his-own/


    'How Biden's economy stacks up against every president's since Eisenhower'

    https://www.businessinsider.com/bide...enhower-2021-8
    Wanna make America great, buy American owned, made in the USA, We do.

    Conservative Liberal - PS I am not PC.

    "I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord make my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it." Voltaire

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    Quote Originally Posted by McRocket View Post
    1) I am for eliminating corporate tax.
    Corporations just pass on the tax cost to their employees/shareholders or consumers.
    It is not a 'free tax'...like so many on the left seem to think.
    100% correct!


    Quote Originally Posted by McRocket View Post
    2) but this notion that many on the right have that the economy 'boomed' under Trump is wrong.

    Even ignoring the Covid Depression (which was not his fault)?
    The average GDP growth under Trump during his first 3 fiscal years was only 2.5%.
    https://www.thebalance.com/gdp-growt...erages-4801102
    I know of no respected economists that would call that 'booming'.
    I don't think anyone can say the economy "boomed" under Trump. But it was on the right track for incredible growth. That's been ruined by the Biden Presidency.

    Quote Originally Posted by McRocket View Post
    OMG!!!! Well, he did have an angry anti-Trump media and anti-Trump Congress to deal with. Hard to get your agenda passed when the opposition fights you every step of the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by McRocket View Post
    For comparison?
    Reagan averaged 3.6% growth.
    Clinton averaged 3.8% growth.
    Even Obama and Bush averaged more GDP growth per year during their terms.

    And GDP growth is the standard means of measuring macroeconomic growth.
    I bet you even Trump will tell you that.
    Yawn.

    Quote Originally Posted by McRocket View Post
    Once again - I despise both parties.
    No one really cares.
    "When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."


    A lie doesn't become the truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good just because it is accepted by a majority.
    Author: Booker T. Washington



    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
    Unless you just can't stand the idea of "ni**ers" teaching white kids.


    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    Address the topic, not other posters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    No one really cares.
    I don't type that because anyone really cares.

    I post it for the record.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    This is a duplicate post for those who are thread banned in the regular forum but want to have an honest debate without insults.

    Excellent article:

    Facts Trump Dems’ claims on Donald’s economy

    When President Donald Trump took office in 2017, economists around the world had accepted the fact that the US economy had entered the “new normal” where economic growth would be low, and wage growth nonexistent. Trump’s team argued that deregulation, trade policy and tax cuts could bring us back to the old normal or, more memorably, make America great again.

    The economy’s response to these policies confirmed everything Trump said would happen, and the Democrats’ rush to reverse his policies with their misnamed “Build Back Better” plan is the highest form of science denial.

    Democrats argued, for example, that the corporate tax cuts would lead to a collapse in tax revenue. That hypothetical collapse is a key excuse for the huge tax hike they now contemplate. Yet corporate tax revenue in 2017 was, according to the Congressional Budget Office, $297 billion. The CBO now estimates that 2021 revenue will be $370 billion.

    Even if one adjusts for economic growth by expressing the numbers as a share of GDP, corporate revenue has climbed proportionally by 7.2 percent. Just as Trump promised, the dynamic effects of the corporate tax reduction led to revenue going up, not down.

    The point was not to make businesses rich. Trump’s team argued that the explosion in the business sector would benefit workers, famously promising that a typical family’s wages would jump $4,000 in three to five years. That assertion was widely ridiculed by the same Democratic economists now pushing the Build Back Better plan. Yet before the pandemic struck, wages were well ahead of that schedule, jumping about 50 percent more than that, $6,000.

    The booming economy especially benefited those less fortunate. Seven million people were lifted off of food stamps. Poverty rates for Hispanic and African Americans reached record lows, as did their unemployment rates. Income inequality declined by the most in decades. Blue-collar wages rose faster than white-collar wages.

    Wealth inequality even declined, with the bottom half of the wealth distribution seeing their wealth increase by 40 percent, in part because home ownership skyrocketed. The share of African Americans owning their own homes climbed from 41.7 percent to 46.4 percent.

    One could go on and on. Against that backdrop, the Build Back Better campaign is nothing short of a factually challenged policy reversal that promises to harm the American worker.

    The massive corporate tax hike planned will chase jobs, incomes and factories overseas, while the green spending binge accomplishes practically nothing. Democrats will lift the top marginal income tax rate to the highest in the developed world, penalizing noncorporate businesses even more than corporations. Trump killed the “new normal” for a while, but Biden is intent on bringing it back.

    What stuns the most is the profound lack of intellectual curiosity required to roll back these policies. Trump’s team had a theory of how things would turn out if their tax cuts were passed. The subsequent data matched that theory.

    If Democrats don’t want to give those policies credit, then at the very least, they should put forward their own theory for why the lower and middle classes flourished after the tax cuts. Why is corporate tax revenue so much higher now despite the lower rates? Why did income inequality decline so much, while incomes climbed five times more in the Trump years than they did under President Barack Obama? Why will lifting marginal tax rates increase capital formation as opposed to magnifying supply disruptions and increasing inflation?

    Of course, there is no reasonable alternative explanation grounded in economic science. Which makes support for the bill despite all of the latest evidence unconscionable.


    https://nypost.com/2021/11/17/10-deb...nhouse-devine/
    Anything but an “excellent article,” sophomoric opinion piece, and the source you cited has nothing to do with economics but rather another opinion piece on Rittenhouse (“copy and paste” must have been in such a hurry he mixed up his next copy and paste posts)

    For beginners, economic indicators, not opinions, show Trump inherited a progressing economy in 2016, not a stale one, Trump’s only job was not to screw it up. Secondly, how can the opinion piece author use 2017 Revenue figures to support his point if the tax bill he talks about wasn’t passed till 2017, didn’t know tax revisions took effect within 24 hours

    Least he was correct in one area, “one could go on and on,” and in effect, talk radio and Fox does 24/7 with the same attack Biden rhetoric, and the irony is that if one does, then the real measurement is what shape of the economy did Biden inherit

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    Quote Originally Posted by archives View Post
    Anything but an “excellent article,” sophomoric opinion piece,
    Because you say so. Got it.



    Quote Originally Posted by archives View Post
    ....and the source you cited has nothing to do with economics but rather another opinion piece on Rittenhouse (“copy and paste” must have been in such a hurry he mixed up his next copy and paste posts)
    Always attack the source when you want to avoid debate. Got it.



    Quote Originally Posted by archives View Post
    For beginners, economic indicators, not opinions, show Trump inherited a progressing economy in 2016, not a stale one,
    He inherited malaise. The data shows that.

    Quote Originally Posted by archives View Post
    Trump’s only job was not to screw it up.
    WRONG. His job was to FIX it, which he did. Energy independence. More money in taxpayers pockets, an embassy in Jerusalem, brokered peace deals between Israel, Bahrain and the United Arab Emirates...the successes were many.

    Meanwhile, what we got from Obama and Hiden Biden were malaise, more taxes, Crimea invaded by Russia and Hiden Biden's son making millions with corrupt regimes.


    Quote Originally Posted by archives View Post
    Secondly, how can the opinion piece author use 2017 Revenue figures to support his point if the tax bill he talks about wasn’t passed till 2017, didn’t know tax revisions took effect within 24 hours
    Cry harder.

    Quote Originally Posted by archives View Post
    Least he was correct in one area, “one could go on and on,” and in effect, talk radio and Fox does 24/7 with the same attack Biden rhetoric, and the irony is that if one does, then the real measurement is what shape of the economy did Biden inherit
    Talk radio; OH NO! Fox News; OH NO. Do you ever have anything other than hyperbole, emotional whining and fact less opinions?
    "When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."


    A lie doesn't become the truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good just because it is accepted by a majority.
    Author: Booker T. Washington



    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
    Unless you just can't stand the idea of "ni**ers" teaching white kids.


    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    Address the topic, not other posters.

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    You gotta give Trump credit he is a first class carnival barker. Cult followers follow, so nothing new here. As President, Trump was a total failure - take a gander at Joe's Accomps if you dare to learn. Nah, thought so.

    'Biden's Economic Performance Has Proved Unbeatable'

    "No first-year president going back to Carter comes close to matching the current White House occupant’s No. 1 or No. 2 ranking in each of 10 key measures."

    https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/ar...ved-unbeatable

    Trump's accomps below:

    https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/...cities-1-1-056


    'How Early Trump Supporters Feel Now' The former president's 2015 backers, in their own words

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...el-now/617815/
    Wanna make America great, buy American owned, made in the USA, We do.

    Conservative Liberal - PS I am not PC.

    "I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord make my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it." Voltaire

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    so far returns to my 401k are 8.2% under Biden, way short of the 74% pre pandemic and 52% with the pandemic. Biden like Obama will decrease disposable incomes
    Dutch Uncle finally admits he is a steaming pile of chickenshit!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringfellow Hawk View Post
    so far returns to my 401k are 8.2% under Biden, way short of the 74% pre pandemic and 52% with the pandemic. Biden like Obama will decrease disposable incomes
    Reality and facts were never the forte of regressive leftists.
    "When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."


    A lie doesn't become the truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good just because it is accepted by a majority.
    Author: Booker T. Washington



    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
    Unless you just can't stand the idea of "ni**ers" teaching white kids.


    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    Address the topic, not other posters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by midcan5 View Post
    You gotta give Trump credit he is a first class carnival barker. Cult followers follow, so nothing new here. As President, Trump was a total failure - take a gander at Joe's Accomps if you dare to learn. Nah, thought so.

    'Biden's Economic Performance Has Proved Unbeatable'

    "No first-year president going back to Carter comes close to matching the current White House occupant’s No. 1 or No. 2 ranking in each of 10 key measures."

    https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/ar...ved-unbeatable
    Bloomberg?

    Biden is now positioned to surpass Carter (5.01%) as the GDP champion of presidents since 1976. Much of the credit goes to The American Rescue Plan, which poured $66 billion into 36 million households and reduced the child poverty rate by 50%, helping the U.S. recover faster from the pandemic than most other nations.

    Yep, according to regressive leftists, Carter was awesome and so is Biden. Forget the inflationary pressures on low-income families. Forget the divisive rhetoric. Forget the massive increase in gas prices. Forget the massive 3 trillion in added spending debt. Forget that the Fed is printing money at a rate that far surpasses GDP and making our currency far less valuable.

    What do you think is going to happen when it comes time to pay for all this spending? Venezuela sound familiar? It's laughable that morons on the left still believe that Governments can SPEND their way out of recessions and pandemics.

    Corporate America was never healthier than under Biden in 2021.

    Really? So what about the millions of small businesses that have disappeared. What about the extremely low labor participation rates?

    The country has lost 400,000 businesses since the start of the pandemic, Guzman said, warning that “many more are at risk.”
    https://wraltechwire.com/2021/03/23/...-aims-to-help/

    Americans are certainly feeling good.

    Really?

    Poll: 77% of Americans now say inflation is personally affecting them
    https://news.yahoo.com/poll-77-perce...ycsrp_catchall

    Poll: Just 1 Percent of Americans View Biden’s Economy as Excellent
    https://www.breitbart.com/economy/20...omy-excellent/

    Nearly 70% of Americans think things are bad in US: poll
    https://nypost.com/2021/09/10/nearly...ad-in-us-poll/

    Bloomberg, as is with many regressive leftists, living in a bubble of denial and fantasy. No, Democrats are not uniters, but dividers and if history is any indication, like Carter, Biden will suffer major losses in the midterms and his agenda will be DOA. He's a one term President if the senile dunce can even live that long.
    "When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."


    A lie doesn't become the truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good just because it is accepted by a majority.
    Author: Booker T. Washington



    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
    Unless you just can't stand the idea of "ni**ers" teaching white kids.


    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    Address the topic, not other posters.

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