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Thread: Alternate Holocaust narrative

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    When the research began in 2000, Dr. Megargee said he expected to find perhaps 7,000 Nazi camps and ghettos, based on postwar estimates. But the numbers kept climbing — first to 11,500, then 20,000, then 30,000, and now 42,500.

    The numbers astound: 30,000 slave labor camps; 1,150 Jewish ghettos; 980 concentration camps; 1,000 prisoner-of-war camps; 500 brothels filled with sex slaves; and thousands of other camps used for euthanizing the elderly and infirm, performing forced abortions, “Germanizing” prisoners or transporting victims to killing centers.

    In Berlin alone, researchers have documented some 3,000 camps and so-called Jew houses, while Hamburg held 1,300 sites.

    Dr. Dean, a co-researcher, said the findings left no doubt in his mind that many German citizens, despite the frequent claims of ignorance after the war, must have known about the widespread existence of the Nazi camps at the time.

    “You literally could not go anywhere in Germany without running into forced labor camps, P.O.W. camps, concentration camps,” he said. “They were everywhere.”

    https://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/03/s...-shocking.html

    Just ignore it, boys- it doesn't fit with your conditioning.


    Haw, haw, haw, haw.......................................haw.
    " First they came for the journalists...
    We don't know what happened after that . "

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    So then- the museum is publishing its fresh research in new encyclopedias- five of them before 2025. I'll bet you're really looking forward to those, eh boys ?


    Haw, haw.....................................haw.
    " First they came for the journalists...
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    What's happened to those who claimed that the new numbers are false , manipulated and part of an ' antisemitic ' plot ?
    " First they came for the journalists...
    We don't know what happened after that . "

    Maria Ressa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Concart View Post
    When I was in school, I was taught that the Holocaust involved Nazis rounding up and exterminating six million Jews in concentration camps.

    But Texas, being the progressive openminded state that it is has insisted that texts teach an alternate narrative. Maybe some 'conservatives' here can lay out those alternative narratives. I'm interested.
    This is gutless on your part. If you have something to say then say it but what you did here is childish.
    Why Trump? Because Fuck You that's why.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    Curious how you are almost defining educated and uneducated Americans. I know the dictionary definition of being educated. One can grow up in NYC and being sent to $50K+/yr private school or sent to a prestigious boarding school, go to an Ivy and then head off to Wall St to work in I-Banking or maybe a hedge fund. Someone else may immigrate here with a high school education at best and start a small business and while they may not become rich themselves send their kids off to school who have a chance to do big things. Is the former so much better of a person because they are better educated?
    I was brought up in a mining valley that had the strongest branch of what had been the strongest union in the world. Its leaders, like Aneurin Bevan from Ebbw Vale, who founded the NHS, were very highly educated indeed. I regard educated people as those who refuse to be brainwashed.
    Last edited by Iolo/Penderyn; 10-22-2021 at 06:48 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquillus in Exile View Post
    There are some fairly detailed figures from the US Holocaust Museum website in my post #214:

    6 million Jews, up to half a million Gypsies (the site makes no distinction between Romanies and Gypsies), an unknown number of political prisoners, and around 8 million others.

    Don't try discussing this with moonie, though, he denies that it's there.


    Btw, you mention the infamous Belsen pictures. Belsen was an 'ordinary' concentration camp, not a death camp. The piles of dead that shocked the world were victims of disease and starvation right at the end of the war.
    My own feeling is that, with the chaos at the end of the War and the deliberate efforts of the SS to hide the facts, such figures would need an awful lot of justification, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iolo/Penderyn View Post
    I was brought up in a mining valley that had the strongest branch of what had been the strongest union in the world. Its leaders, like Aneurin Bevan from Ebbw Vale, who founded the NHS, were very highly educated indeed. I regard educated people as those who refuse to be brainwashed.
    By dictionary definition being educated is defined by how far one went in school. Therefore one can be highly intelligent but not well educated. However as you lay out when many people talk about the educated vs uneducated it's really an ideological thing, if you agree with me politically and with my world view then you are educated and if you don't then you are not.

    In America many of our best educated go off to Wall St, private equity, hedge funds, big consulting firms, big tech companies, etc. If one is anti-capitalism you may not view that so positively. Yet in America many will sh*t on those who go to trade schools or don't go to college and work blue collar jobs (many of those people share your political view of the world).

    Ultimately to each his own and the path one chooses to pursue but this 'educated vs non-educated' can often come from an elitist perspective (and not going to say I've never taken that attitude because I definitely have) and not out of respect for the working stiff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BidenPresident View Post
    We need to teach kids epistemology.
    That Critical Race Theory practice of "serve the Pope or die" national religion of those crooks on Capital Hill which put on survival of the fittest fascists economics just for SCOTUS granting standing as one nation under God with equal justice under law preying for others to pay for Peter Principle pyramid scheme master race propaganda.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    By dictionary definition being educated is defined by how far one went in school. Therefore one can be highly intelligent but not well educated. However as you lay out when many people talk about the educated vs uneducated it's really an ideological thing, if you agree with me politically and with my world view then you are educated and if you don't then you are not.

    In America many of our best educated go off to Wall St, private equity, hedge funds, big consulting firms, big tech companies, etc. If one is anti-capitalism you may not view that so positively. Yet in America many will sh*t on those who go to trade schools or don't go to college and work blue collar jobs (many of those people share your political view of the world).

    Ultimately to each his own and the path one chooses to pursue but this 'educated vs non-educated' can often come from an elitist perspective (and not going to say I've never taken that attitude because I definitely have) and not out of respect for the working stiff.
    I think my own definition of 'educated' would be something like 'having, by thinking about experience, come to understand the world well enough that one's behaviour in it produces results one intends'. The ancient Greeks, for instance, seldom attended anything like our schools, but they knew more about their world than anyone else at the time. A lot of schools - and, increasingly alas, even universities - seem to equate education with learning prepared facts. Aneurin Bevan left school at fourteen but was able to organise a national health service, which took very considerable trained intelligence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moon View Post
    So it did- but it also involved the rounding up and extermination of up to 14 million other minorities-- Roma, Gypsies , coloured folk, the handicapped , etc ., anybody considered a threat to the purity of the white Aryan ' race'.
    You should have been taught that the slaughter of Jews is known as ' the Shoah ' and that of the Gypsies as ' the Devouring ' etc., components of the overall Holocaust . The Holocaust was never a Jewish-only episode, Jews forming fewer than a third of its victims.
    Your math is flawed. The Nazis murdered 2/3s of the Jews in Europe along with millions of others as you pointed out. About 11 million Euros were murdered of which 6 million, more than half, were Jews.

    https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/conte...-the-holocaust
    In 1933, the Jewish population of Europe stood at over nine million. Most European Jews lived in countries that Nazi Germany would occupy or influence during World War II. By the end of the war in 1945, the Germans and their allies and collaborators killed nearly two out of every three European Jews as part of the "Final Solution."...

    ...While Jews were the priority target of Nazi racism, other groups within Germany were persecuted for racial reasons, including Roma View This Term in the Glossary (then commonly called "Gypsies"), Afro-Germans, and people with mental or physical disabilities. By the end of the war, the Germans and their Axis partners murdered between 250,000 and 500,000 Roma. And between 1939 and 1945, they murdered at least 250,000 mentally or physically disabled patients, mainly German and living in institutions, in the so-called Euthanasia Program.

    As Nazi tyranny spread across Europe, the Germans and their collaborators persecuted and murdered millions of other people seen as biologically inferior or dangerous. Approximately 3.3 million Soviet prisoners of war were murdered or died of starvation, disease, neglect, or brutal treatment. The Germans shot tens of thousands of non-Jewish members of the Polish intelligentsia, murdered the inhabitants of hundreds of villages in “pacification” raids in Poland and the Soviet Union, and deported millions of Polish and Soviet civilians to perform forced labor under conditions that caused many to die.



    https://www.history.com/topics/world.../the-holocaust
    To the anti-Semitic Nazi leader Adolf Hitler, Jews were an inferior race, an alien threat to German racial purity and community. After years of Nazi rule in Germany, during which Jews were consistently persecuted, Hitler’s “final solution”—now known as the Holocaust—came to fruition under the cover of World War II, with mass killing centers constructed in the concentration camps of occupied Poland. Approximately six million Jews and some 5 million others, targeted for racial, political, ideological and behavioral reasons, died in the Holocaust. More than one million of those who perished were children.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guille View Post
    This is gutless on your part. If you have something to say then say it but what you did here is childish.
    Wow, I just realized I don't give a fuck what you think. Pretty cool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Uncle View Post
    U.S. Holocaust Museum Encyclopedia:

    While Jews were the priority target of Nazi racism, other groups within Germany were persecuted for racial reasons, including Roma...
    https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/conte...-the-holocaust
    That is what I have been saying for three days.

    It is in fact, the official position of the US Holocaust Museum and other acknowledged experts on the Holocaust.

    The entire educated world knows the Nazis murdered other people besides Jews.

    Slave labor, starvation of POWs, summary executions and reprisals against civilians suspected of supporting resistance groups are tragic - and worth scholarly investigation.

    But they are not part of the genocide associated with the Holocaust/final solution


    The Nazis committed a lot of atrocities besides genocide.

    I thought that was common knowledge among the educated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    That is what I have been saying for three days.

    It is in fact, the official position of the US Holocaust Museum and other acknowledged experts on the Holocaust.

    The entire educated world knows the Nazis murdered other people besides Jews.

    Slave labor, starvation of POWs, summary executions and reprisals against civilians suspected of supporting resistance groups are tragic - and worth scholarly investigation.

    But they are not part of the genocide associated with the Holocaust/final solution


    The Nazis committed a lot of atrocities besides genocide.

    I thought that was common knowledge among the educated.
    It is...at least among the sane and educated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Uncle View Post
    It is...at least among the sane and educated.
    Occasionally on message boards one runs across those who are screaming that nobody is recognizing the other people besides Jews killed by Nazi Germany.

    That has not been my experience at all.

    If you looked at the world as a whole and took a global tally on monuments and memorials dedicated to the sacrifice of Russian, Ukrainian, Polish, Belarusian, Serbian people during the Nazi onslaught, I think they would substantially outnumber monuments specifically dedicated to Jewish victims.

    In Russia and Belarus, you can't throw a rock without hitting a monument dedicated to the sacrifices of Soviet soldiers and civilians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    Occasionally on message boards one runs across those who are screaming that nobody is recognizing the other people besides Jews killed by Nazi Germany.

    That has not been my experience at all.

    If you looked at the world as a whole and took a global tally on monuments and memorials dedicated to the sacrifice of Russian, Ukrainian, Polish, Belarusian, Serbian people during the Nazi onslaught, I think they would substantially outnumber monuments specifically dedicated to Jewish victims.

    In Russia and Belarus, you can't throw a rock without hitting a monument dedicated to the sacrifices of Soviet soldiers and civilians.
    More often I see people who imply "only" as if the others don't matter. Oddly, those who do so are often antisemitics. LOL

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