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Thread: Alternate Holocaust narrative

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    Quote Originally Posted by moon View Post
    You're bordering on the asinine. I've been quoting the Washington Holocaust Museum research to YOU- and you've spent much of this thread contesting it.
    Further, wasn't it you that just claimed that Roma and Gypsies were the same people ? Or was that the Concart fool.



    That doesn't surprise me as it's not a claim I've made. Your ass-covering misquotes aren't going to work .
    Now that I have convinced Moon to accept USNHM as a highly reputable, authoritative, and legitimate source of Holocaust information and research, here is what USNHM says on their home webpage:

    "The Holocaust was the state-sponsored, systematic persecution and annihilation of European Jewry by Nazi Germany and its collaborators between 1933 and 1945. Jews were the primary victims—six million were murdered; Roma, people with disabilities and Poles were also targeted for destruction or decimation for racial, ethnic, or national reasons."

    "Millions more, including gay men, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Soviet prisoners of war and political dissidents, also suffered grievous oppression and death under Nazi tyranny."

    https://www.ushmm.org/information/ab...on-and-history

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    Quote Originally Posted by Concart View Post
    It's funny how quickly a thread can steer from it's original intent when one poster with an agenda decides that this thread is fodder for their crusade. Next time I'm interested in discussing some issue that involves the Holocaust, I'll make sure I prevent that from happening. Let's see if I can get it back on track.

    A Texas school official suggested that a 'opposing narrative' be taught when teaching about the Holocaust. I don't give two fucks if you want to talk about JUST the six million Jews, or if you want to talk about 18 million people killed. THAT IS NOT THE POINT OF THE THREAD. It was not bait to have a poster call everyone holocaust deniers. The point, if it wasn't obvious to EVERYONE is that there is no 'opposing narrative' to a factual accounting of history. Suggesting there is so is an attempt to whitewash history because some people are uncomfortable talking about it.

    Can we talk about that instead? Would that be okay with you?

    Gee, thanks.
    Cowardice Is the Crime That Enables All Others


    There are debatable opposing narratives about what we should conclude from the Holocaust. What lessons should we have learned from it?

    First alternative: The Holocaust tells us nothing about racism in general.

    Second: The rest of the world can't be judged guilty of anything just because it didn't intervene.

    Third: American Jews could have joined the British or Canadian armies more than two years before Pearl Harbor, so, if the second alternative if false, the Jews were as guilty as the Isolationists.

    Fourth: The Jews should have terrorized the Nazis; every Jew should have chosen violence instead of hiding or submitting in a cowardly hope that things wouldn't turn out so bad. That would have prevented World War II. The same could be said about the Czechs, the Poles, the Belgians, the Dutch, and the Danes.
    On the outside, trickling down on the Insiders

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    "The Holocaust was the state-sponsored, systematic persecution and annihilation of European Jewry by Nazi Germany and its collaborators between 1933 and 1945. Jews were the primary victims—six million were murdered; Roma, people with disabilities and Poles were also targeted for destruction or decimation for racial, ethnic, or national reasons."

    "Millions more, including gay men, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Soviet prisoners of war and political dissidents, also suffered grievous oppression and death under Nazi tyranny."

    https://www.ushmm.org/information/ab...on-and-history
    The starvation of Soviet prisoners of war, the slave labor facilities, and the deaths of Soviet soldiers and civilians by Nazi militaristic aggression are all important topics.

    Worthy of research and discussion.

    But that is not the Holocaust.

    Trying to lump in these other deaths with the Holocaust is a standard tactic of deniers with visions of Zionist conspiracies dancing in their heads.

    The Holocaust refers to a genocide, which in this case used industrialized tools of mass murder to eliminate Jews, and to a lesser extent Romani and other undesirables.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moon View Post
    Twice as many other ethnic groups and minorities were murdered in the Holocaust as there were Jews- 12-14 million in contrast to 6 million Jews.
    Who says so ? The Washington Holocaust Museum . It isn't afraid to alter its past inaccuracies- and neither should anybody else be.
    Here is what the Washington Holocaust Museum says under Number of Deaths (civilians only)

    Jews: 6 million

    Soviet civilians: 5.7 million (excluding Jews counted above)

    Non-Jewish Poles: 1.8 million

    Serbs in Croatia etc: 312,000

    Disabled people in institutions: up to 250,000

    Roma/Gypsies: 250,00 – 500,000

    Repeat criminal offenders: at least 70,000

    Political opponents and resistance activists: unknown

    Homosexuals: hundreds, possibly thousands.

    https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/conte...zi-persecution

    I make that 6 million Jews, up to half a million Gypsies, an unknown number of political prisoners, and around 8 million others.


    Now here is my question again. Apart from Jews and Gypsies, which of the above were targeted for total extermination on grounds of ethnicity? You only have to find 12 million or so!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    Now that I have convinced Moon to accept USNHM as a highly reputable, authoritative, and legitimate source of Holocaust information and research, here is what USNHM says on their home webpage:
    You really are delusional.

    Why do you think that the museum's publicity page doesn't mention its own research ? It's a question that you've neglected to ask yourself, isn't it.

    Do you think that the museum disagrees with its own research ?
    Is its own research embarrassing in some way ?
    Last edited by moon; 10-19-2021 at 05:16 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquillus in Exile View Post


    Now here is my question again. Apart from Jews and Gypsies, which of the above were targeted for total extermination on grounds of ethnicity? You only have to find 12 million or so!
    ....and I'll answer again- question the museum's researchers for divisions of their totals. You are also neglecting the minorities that were murdered. Why don't the minorities feature in your niggardly and petulant reasoning ? Perhaps you think you've scored a point without them ?

    Haw, haw..................................haw.


    Consider just some of the murdered minorities mentioned ;
    Slavs, Poles, Ukranians, Soviet Slavs, Spanish Republicans, Non-Europeans, the disabled, gays and lesbians, political prisoners, Leftists, allied nationals, Jehova's Witnesses, Roman Catholics, protestants, Bahai's, Freemasons, Esperantists , Resistance suspects, Jew- harborers, harborers of other undesirables, prostitutes, vagrants, alcoholics, drug users, dissidents, pacifists, draft resisters , blue-triangle ' emigrants 'and common criminals.

    I'm sure there were many, many more

    How many might that add up to, do you think- and on the weight of the evidence are you still going to insist that the Holocaust was a ' Jewish ' event ?

    It seems plain that there are at least two flavors of Holocaust Denial- denying that it happened and denying that Jewish victims were in a minority.


    Anyway- put the Holocaust aside. The descendants of its Jewish survivors are busy practicing their own brand of fascism against their own prisoners- but then again you like to deny that too, doncha.


    Last edited by moon; 10-19-2021 at 05:33 PM.
    " First they came for the journalists...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash View Post
    I guess you could include the reasons given by the Germans to commit such acts. That does not mean you are justifying it.

    However, no one in Texas was suggesting there was "another side" to the Holocaust. It was just a bad example used to try to explain to teachers how they might be in compliance with the new law requiring a diversity of views on controversial subjects.
    Parents are upset because they think critical race theory will teach their children that they are oppressors.

    You now have both the left and right turning to politically correct efforts not to hurt anyone's feelings or say anything that will offend them.
    So the bottom line is that she is as dumb and ignorant as a box of rocks and should not be anywhere near an institution of learning. But hey it's Texas, where no grade school ever taught critical race theory anyway.
    Last edited by Cinnabar; 10-19-2021 at 05:57 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Concart View Post
    When I was in school, I was taught that the Holocaust involved Nazis rounding up and exterminating six million Jews in concentration camps.

    But Texas, being the progressive openminded state that it is has insisted that texts teach an alternate narrative. Maybe some 'conservatives' here can lay out those alternative narratives. I'm interested.

    It's been my experience that you slaves aren't allowed to hear the facts on that matter. History is written by the victors. The victors are powerful. They control forums and everything else. But if you want to send me a PM, maybe I can help you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cinnabar View Post
    So the bottom line is that she is as dumb and ignorant as a box of rocks and should not be anywhere near an institution of learning. But hey it's Texas where no grade school ever taught critical race theory anyway.
    Like every other state, Texas teachers can unofficially teach whatever they want to. They don't have to all it CRT which has an ill-defined nebulous meaning aside from law school courses. Texas teachers graduate from the same colleges and education schools as every other teacher in the U. S. They ignore any silly legislative or state board of education guidelines which are written so vaguely that it is easy to comply.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    I have never met these Zionists of who you speak.

    They must be a tiny minority who are not even on my radar.


    Nobody in any public school in America is teaching that only Jews were murdered in the Holocaust.


    The thing that makes the Final Solution so unique was it's diabolical criminal nature in planning and executing the extermination of an entire major ethnic group from the entire continent using industrialized means of mass murder.

    My Slavic relatives lived through a brutal Nazi occupation. As bad as it was, they were not hunted down, rounded up, transported to death camps.

    They did not have to hide in cellars or run and hide in bushes the forest.
    It was sick racism, but it certainly included other groups that the Nazis were attempting to wipe out - Gypsies, for instance, on the 'racial' line, homosexuals and anyone mentally retarded. I hardly get the impression, though, that the majority of Americans are taught about the vast number of Russian prisoners murdered, for instance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moon View Post
    ....question the museum's researchers for divisions of their totals ... why don't the minorities feature in your niggardly and petulant reasoning ?
    The figures quoted in my post #214 are exactly those that appear on the Holocaust Museum’s current website:
    https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/conte...zi-persecution

    Where are the 12-14 million extra ethnic extermination victims you keep harping on about, in addition to 6 million Jews?


    Anyway- put the Holocaust aside. The descendants of its Jewish survivors are busy practicing their own brand of fascism against their own prisoners
    Yes, that's your real agenda. Considering that the Arab population of Palestine has quadrupled in the past half century, you've got your work cut out convincing anyone of that. Try Jeremy Corbyn and his Islington comrades, they might swallow it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iolo/Penderyn View Post
    It was sick racism, but it certainly included other groups that the Nazis were attempting to wipe out - Gypsies, for instance, on the 'racial' line, homosexuals and anyone mentally retarded. I hardly get the impression, though, that the majority of Americans are taught about the vast number of Russian prisoners murdered, for instance.
    For sure, that is why I specifically said the Jews were the only major ethnic group targeted for extermination from the continent.

    I have repeatedly noted that the US National Holocaust museum acknowledges the genocide of Romani and other minorities 'undesirables'. I actually have posts on this board about the genocide of the Romani.

    I think it is almost universally understood in the educated world that the Nazis murdered more than just the Jews.

    The sad fact is that the murder of 200,000 Romani and 100,000 disabled people is just not going to get exactly the same, equivalent amount of press as the extermination of six million Jews from the continent.


    As for the starvation of over one million Soviet prisoners of war, I probably have more posts about that than anyone on this board. Even though it is not technically part of the genocide that defines the Holocaust, I have started that it is a topic worthy of more research and public awareness.

    Also worth awareness is the way Stalin treated Soviet POWs when they got back to Russia. A lot of them were shipped to the Gulag for the purported crime of treason in surrendering.


    Now, if you traveled the planet and added up the number of memorials to Soviet versus Jewish victims of Hitler, I think monuments to Soviet victims would win hands down. You cannot throw a rock in Russia or Belarus without hitting a monument to the sacrifices of Soviet soldiers and civilians due to Nazi aggression.

    In contrast, to my knowledge there is only one, modest monument in Belarus acknowledging the genocide of one million Byelorussian Jews -- their fellow citizens.

    So on a global scale and taken as a whole, I am not convinced by the argument that people have forgotten the sacrifices of Soviet citizens in WW2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquillus in Exile View Post
    The figures quoted in my post #214 are exactly those that appear on the Holocaust Museum’s current website:
    https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/conte...zi-persecution

    Where are the 12-14 million extra ethnic extermination victims you keep harping on about, in addition to 6 million Jews?


    .
    Oh, so you really are going to ignore the masses of exterminated minorities in the hope that emphasizing ethnicities can get you off the hook.


    Haw, haw....................................haw.

    Let's run some of them past you again;

    Consider just some of the murdered minorities mentioned ;
    Slavs, Poles, Ukranians, Soviet Slavs, Spanish Republicans, Non-Europeans, the disabled, gays and lesbians, political prisoners, Leftists, allied nationals, Jehova's Witnesses, Roman Catholics, protestants, Bahai's, Freemasons, Esperantists , Resistance suspects, Jew- harborers, harborers of other undesirables, prostitutes, vagrants, alcoholics, drug users, dissidents, pacifists, draft resisters , blue-triangle ' emigrants 'and common criminals.

    I'm sure there were many, many more

    How many might that add up to, do you think- and on the weight of the evidence are you still going to insist that the Holocaust was a ' Jewish ' event ?


    It seems plain that there are at least two flavors of Holocaust Denial- denying that it happened and denying that Jewish victims were in a minority.


    Anyway- put the Holocaust aside. The descendants of its Jewish survivors are busy practicing their own brand of fascism against their own prisoners- but then again you like to deny that too, doncha.


    Now try ignoring them again. It would amount to Holocaust Denial.
    " First they came for the journalists...
    We don't know what happened after that . "

    Maria Ressa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moon View Post
    You really are delusional.

    Why do you think that the museum's publicity page doesn't mention its own research ? It's a question that you've neglected to ask yourself, isn't it.

    Do you think that the museum disagrees with its own research ?
    Is its own research embarrassing in some way ?
    So I got you to like USNHM until you saw that their mission statement acknowledges Jews were the primary victims of the Holocaust, then you suddenly didn't like them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    So I got you to like USNHM until you saw that their mission statement acknowledges Jews were the primary victims of the Holocaust, then you suddenly didn't like them.
    You're simply ignoring everything that I post which doesn't suit your skewed prosemitic agenda.

    Again- why doesn't the museum feature the results of its own research in full ? It acknowledges the results in terms of the discovery of 42,000 death camps and ghettos. Where's the rest of the report ?
    " First they came for the journalists...
    We don't know what happened after that . "

    Maria Ressa.

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