Alternate Holocaust narrative

[Doc Dutch]

Before any poster accuses me of being a tool of the Zionist lobby, my position is that the Palestinian people have legitimate grievances, and some actions the Israeli government has taken constitute crimes against humanity.

Agreed on the Palestinians and would discuss Israeli conduct in comparison to other nations. That doesn't necessarily save you from lies and trollish attacks by the nutjobs.

[Concart]

Before any poster accuses me of being a tool of the Zionist lobby, my position is that the Palestinian people have legitimate grievances, and some actions the Israeli government has taken constitute crimes against humanity.

I strongly agree with the sentiment.

[Doc Dutch]

For sure, the only reason most Americans even know a single thing about the Balkans was the genocide, aka ethnic cleansing in the 1990s.

The sad fact is that genocide is just going to shock the public conscience more than centuries of starvation, summary execution, and death from deprivation in human conflicts.

The moral of the story is that there is no global Zionist plot to sweep the deaths of Russians, non-Jewish Poles and Serbians under the carpet.

Agreed on both the moral of the story and about the Balkans.

I was attending night classes (which the Navy covered 75%) in 1989-1990 for an International Relations Masters. Most of the classes were geared toward the Soviet Union. Seeking to break from the pack, having seen the cracks in the USSR since Reagan's first days, I focused upon where I thought the next wars would be (ME and South America). Good thing too because when the Berlin Wall fell, every Soviet textbook soon became obsolete.

One thing I distinctly recall is that most professors agreed the Balkans would turn into a shit show when the Soviets left. The Soviets were the only ones keeping a lid on things there for most of the century. A few years later the professors were proved correct.

[Cypress]

Certainly far more of the victims were non-Jewish. It's likely true that Jews were the largest ethnic group of victims- but that's as far as it goes. You can continue to try to subvert the truth of the Holocaust- but the time will come for your acceptance and apologies. 6 million of up to 20 million is not the ' main ' percentage.

I said about one hundred posts ago that merely based on body count alone, citizens and soldiers of the USSR took the most serious body blows from Nazi Germany.

It is also just a simple fact of life that the public conscience is more shocked by the diabolical nature of ethnic genocide, in a way that starvation, civilian reprisals, and slave labor do not.

That is exactly why even though there have been countless atrocities in Africa in the last 50 years, the only thing most people remember was the genocide of the Tutsi people in Rwanda -- because it was utterly shocking.

[moon]

I said about one hundred posts ago that merely based on body count alone, citizens and soldiers of the USSR took the most serious body blows from Nazi Germany.

It is also just a simple fact of life that the public conscience is more shocked by the diabolical nature of ethnic genocide, in a way that starvation, civilian reprisals, and slave labor do not.

That is exactly why even though there have been countless atrocities in Africa in the last 50 years, the only thing most people remember was the genocide of the Tutsi people in Rwanda -- because it was utterly shocking.

The millions of non-Jews recognized as having been victims of the Holocaust do NOT include the Russian civilians who died on Hitler's eastern front. Six million Jews died, up to 14 million others died. Again, these were other ethnicities , other minorities and anybody that got in the way of the ' master race '. These included;
Slavs, Poles, Ukranians, Soviet Slavs, Spanish Republicans, Non-Europeans, the disabled, gays and lesbians, political prisoners, Leftists, allied nationals, Jehova's Witnesses, Roman Catholics, protestants, Bahai's, Freemasons, Esperantists , Resistance suspects, Jew- harborers, harborers of other undesirables, prostitutes, vagrants, alcoholics, drug users, dissidents, pacifists, draft resisters, blue triangle ' emigrants ' and common criminals. And others, no doubt.

Deny it all you like- but Jews did NOT, numerically, form the largest percentage of victims .

[chainbreak]

When I was in school, I was taught that the Holocaust involved Nazis rounding up and exterminating six million Jews in concentration camps.

But Texas, being the progressive openminded state that it is has insisted that texts teach an alternate narrative. Maybe some 'conservatives' here can lay out those alternative narratives. I'm interested.

Well in another thread one of your replies turned out to be true. I guess I did in fact ask you to PM me. Though you insulted the hell out of me. You said that you were interested in those alternatives. But as things turned out, you're just an asshole. You don't really want to know. But I will tell you that the holocaust from beginning to end it is just a pile of horseshit. I could tell you why. But I am doubtful that I would be able to tell you why. Somebody around here may have already done so. And if they had, they are probably banned now. That is why I asked you to PM me. But now that I know more about how you really feel, I don't want you to. You suck.

[moon]

‘Remember the 11 million’? Why an inflated victims tally irks Holocaust historians
An oft-cited statistic of 5 million non-Jewish Holocaust deaths has no basis in fact, experts say, and may be contributing to denial efforts

It is, however, a number without any scholarly basis.

Indeed, say those close to the late Nazi hunter Simon Wiesenthal, its progenitor, it is a number that was intended to increase sympathy for Jewish suffering but which now is more often used to obscure it.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/rememb...st-historians/

So then- are you ' 11 million victims ' boys going to climb down in one go or just a little step at a time ?

Let's start with Kaffer kicker;

kaffer-kicker;

Your math is flawed. About 11 million Euros were murdered of which 6 million, more than half, were Jews.

Haw, haw.................................haw.


Now then- if those in charge of Holocaust museums and archives are sweating over the mere thought that there were 5 million victims other Jews- bringing the total to the oft-quoted ' 11 million ' victims- then they sure as hell are going to be apoplectic at the Washington Holocaust Museum research showing that the total is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay higher than that.

Don't let your populist third-hand arithmetic get in the way of 13 years of Jewish academic research.

Haw, haw................................haw.

[Doc Dutch]

I said about one hundred posts ago that merely based on body count alone, citizens and soldiers of the USSR took the most serious body blows from Nazi Germany.

It is also just a simple fact of life that the public conscience is more shocked by the diabolical nature of ethnic genocide, in a way that starvation, civilian reprisals, and slave labor do not.

That is exactly why even though there have been countless atrocities in Africa in the last 50 years, the only thing most people remember was the genocide of the Tutsi people in Rwanda -- because it was utterly shocking.

Stalin appears to have caused the deaths of more Soviets than the Nazis.

Excess mortality in the Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin

Prior to the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the archival revelations, some historians estimated that the numbers killed by Stalin's regime were 20 million or higher.[4][5][6] After the Soviet Union dissolved, evidence from the Soviet archives was declassified and researchers were allowed to study it. This contained official records of 799,455 executions (1921–1953),[7] around 1.7 million deaths in the Gulag,[8][9] some 390,000[10] deaths during the dekulakization forced resettlement, and up to 400,000 deaths of persons deported during the 1940s,[11] with a total of about 3.3 million officially recorded victims in these categories.[12] The deaths of at least 5.5 to 6.5 million[13] persons in the Soviet famine of 1932–1933 are sometimes, though not always, included with the victims of the Stalin era.[2][14]

WWII deaths: https://www.nationalww2museum.org/st...aths-world-war

Separating out which deaths were solely caused by the Nazis and which were caused by Stalin is problematic.

[Cypress]

Stalin appears to have caused the deaths of more Soviets than the Nazis.

Excess mortality in the Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin


WWII deaths: https://www.nationalww2museum.org/st...aths-world-war

Separating out which deaths were solely caused by the Nazis and which were caused by Stalin is problematic.

Stalin was one of history's most notorious criminals.

The Wikipedia article claims that after researchers had access to the Soviet archives, it was determined that 3.3 million deaths were directly attributable to Stalin's actions.

Stalin was also in power for almost 30 years, so that is something over 100,000 deaths per year.

Stalin's main crimes were slave labor, summary executions of perceived political opponents, and totalitarian control by use of political terror to maintain a climate of fear.

He did not engage in genocide as legally defined. He was keenly interested in the benefits of slave labor and the use of political terror.

It is unfortunate that no Soviet officials of the Stalin regime stood trial for crimes against humanity. The most they got, was an oral rebuke from Nikita Khrushchev.


The National WW2 link claims over 20 million deaths of Soviet soldiers and civilians in WW2.

Some of it was Stalin's fault, aka his invasions of Finland and Poland.

The vast majority of deaths were a result of the war with the Nazis. There a monument in my father's village with about a 120 names on it; about a third of the village who died during the war with Nazi Germany, either during service in the Red Army, or because of the deprivations of living under a harsh occupation.

Every Russian or Belarusian citizen I have talked to lost a grandfather, an uncle, a grandmother, or some other relative in the war against Nazi Germany.

Strictly taken as a numerical body count, citizens of the USSR took the biggest body blow from Hitler.

[Mott the Hoople]

children are being racially segregated at schools.

they're teaching racial stereotypes.

the left are the nazis.

Yea well the last I checked the nut jobs on the far right outnumber the far left by more than four to one are orders of magnitude more violent and are far more proactive at undermining our public democratic institutions and replacing them with autocracy and are significantly less educated. Those are facts. Not opinions and the the far left is far less of an existential threat to our democratic republic than any candy assed snow flake safe space post modernist liberal is.

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

Yea well the last I checked the nut jobs on the far right outnumber the far left by more than four to one are orders of magnitude more violent and are far more proactive at undermining our public democratic institutions and replacing them with autocracy and are significantly less educated. Those are facts. Not opinions and the the far left is far less of an existential threat to our democratic republic than any candy assed snow flake safe space post modernist liberal is.

where did you go check? faucis assbox?

[Doc Dutch]

Stalin was one of history's most notorious criminals.

The Wikipedia article claims that after researchers had access to the Soviet archives, it was determined that 3.3 million deaths were directly attributable to Stalin's actions.

Stalin was also in power for almost 30 years, so that is something over 100,000 deaths per year.

Stalin's main crimes were slave labor, summary executions of perceived political opponents, and totalitarian control by use of political terror to maintain a climate of fear.

He did not engage in genocide as legally defined. He was keenly interested in the benefits of slave labor and the use of political terror.

It is unfortunate that no Soviet officials of the Stalin regime stood trial for crimes against humanity. The most they got, was an oral rebuke from Nikita Khrushchev.


The National WW2 link claims over 20 million deaths of Soviet soldiers and civilians in WW2.

Some of it was Stalin's fault, aka his invasions of Finland and Poland.

The vast majority of deaths were a result of the war with the Nazis. There a monument in my father's village with about a 120 names on it; about a third of the village who died during the war with Nazi Germany, either during service in the Red Army, or because of the deprivations of living under a harsh occupation.

Every Russian or Belarusian citizen I have talked to lost a grandfather, an uncle, a grandmother, or some other relative in the war against Nazi Germany.

Strictly taken as a numerical body count, citizens of the USSR took the biggest body blow from Hitler.

Agreed. As deadly as Stalin was, he wasn't committing genocide. He simply forced Russians into the 20th century on pain of death.

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

Agreed. As deadly as Stalin was, he wasn't committing genocide. He simply forced Russians into the 20th century on pain of death.

he was committing genocide.

[moon]

Just to offset the juvenile ' America good, Russia bad ' hilarity which often permeates this forum- Russia didn't drop two atomic bombs on two cities full of civilians.

As for post-war aggression, invasions and support for fascist regimes- there's no doubt at all who tops that chart.

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

Just to offset the juvenile ' America good, Russia bad ' hilarity which often permeates this forum- Russia didn't drop two atomic bombs on two cities full of civilians.

As for post-war aggression, invasions and support for fascist regimes- there's no doubt at all who tops that chart.

I really think we should have blown up some empty island or open land first as a demonstration first.

and yes, it is extremely easy to judge it now, looking back, out of harms way......