Alternate Holocaust narrative

[Cypress]

My theory is that the American public conscience is just more shocked by genocide.

Starvation of prisoners, slave labor, summary executions, and reprisals against civilians have been a part of warfare since the Bronze Age.

They simply do not shock the American public conscience in the way the uniquely 20th century crime of genocide did.

There was also exactly zero chance the American government and our public discourse was going to expend a lot of resources of a public education effort on the starvation and executions of Soviet soldiers and civilians.

[saltydancin]

More often I see people who imply "only" as if the others don't matter. Oddly, those who do so are often antisemitics. LOL

While they are still striving to have their Christiananlity pedophilia national religion based on a fabricated misnomer being forgiven immaculate Jesus the Christ conception.

[Doc Dutch]

My theory is that the American public conscience is just more shocked by genocide.

Starvation of prisoners, slave labor, summary executions, and reprisals against civilians have been a part of warfare since the Bronze Age.

They simply do not shock the American public conscience in the way the uniquely 20th century crime of genocide did.

There was also exactly zero chance the American government and our public discourse was going to expend a lot of resources of a public education effort on the starvation and executions of Soviet soldiers and civilians.

I think it was the mechanization, the efficiency of procession millions of people, separating out their belongs into piles then executing and cremating the remains.

They put people in one end of the Death Factory and ashes came out the other end. To me, that's horrifying.

BTW, don't bet any money on the bolded since the US already did it at the Holocaust link in my post:
Approximately 3.3 million Soviet prisoners of war were murdered or died of starvation, disease, neglect, or brutal treatment.

[cawacko]

Not to derail the thread but had random thought. In California its making news that we will now mandate ethnic studies classes for kids to graduate. The argument has long been our history classes have had far too much of a European (aka white) focus. Now there's no way to tell the American story without discussing WWII and people all over the globe should be made aware of the atrocities committed in the Holocaust.

With these changes it will be interesting to see how we tell our nation's story going forward.

[Cypress]

I think it was the mechanization, the efficiency of procession millions of people, separating out their belongs into piles then executing and cremating the remains.

They put people in one end of the Death Factory and ashes came out the other end. To me, that's horrifying.

BTW, don't bet any money on the bolded since the US already did it at the Holocaust link in my post:
Approximately 3.3 million Soviet prisoners of war were murdered or died of starvation, disease, neglect, or brutal treatment.

Good points.


Holocaust Museum foundation is a private, non profit NGO.

The point I made, is that being a cold war enemy, USA government was not interested in establishing public awareness campaigns of how Soviet soldiers and civilians were treated by the Nazis.

Plus genocide is just more shocking to the public conscience than starvation and deprivation.

There have been many atrocities in Africa in the last 50 years. But what do we always remember?

The Rwandan genocide.

[Doc Dutch]

Good points.


Holocaust Museum foundation is a private, non profit NGO.

The point I made, is that being a cold war enemy, USA government was not interested in establishing public awareness campaigns of how Soviet soldiers and civilians were treated by the Nazis.

Plus genocide is just more shocking to the public conscience than starvation and deprivation.

There have been many atrocities in Africa in the last 50 years. But what do we always remember?

The Rwandan genocide.

When did the US government decide it needed to have public awareness campaigns for any foreigners? While I understand that the Cold War put a damper on any US concerns about Soviet casualties, my understanding is that we all worked quite well together when it came to hunting down and punishing Nazis.

[Doc Dutch]

Not to derail the thread but had random thought. In California its making news that we will now mandate ethnic studies classes for kids to graduate. The argument has long been our history classes have had far too much of a European (aka white) focus. Now there's no way to tell the American story without discussing WWII and people all over the globe should be made aware of the atrocities committed in the Holocaust.

With these changes it will be interesting to see how we tell our nation's story going forward.

About the same. WWII was more than the Nazis. We had the Japanese too and the Rape of Nanking. That counts as "ethnic". More history about the Spanish raping and pillaging in South and Central America versus the English colonies in the north. France had some but they needed cash for their wars.

Let's face it, most history is about wars and conflicts. Peace takes a sentence at most. Something like "There was peace for ten years before war broke out again"

Even the Space Race was a conflict. The Hypersonic missile North Korea just flew makes me wonder what our guys have under wraps.

Industrialization created civil conflict with the Luddites being among the most famous and Trump equally looking backwards the most recent example.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-58729701

The good news is that, aside from some hot spots, the world has been more at peace than any time before and has been all this century. The problems a conflicts between emerging nations. China not only is asserting its own version of the Monroe Doctrine, but is flexing its muscles to assert dominance in the region.

I think it's important for American students to have a grasp of the world at large. If that's the intention of these new laws, then I'm all for them.

[Cypress]

When did the US government decide it needed to have public awareness campaigns for any foreigners? While I understand that the Cold War put a damper on any US concerns about Soviet casualties, my understanding is that we all worked quite well together when it came to hunting down and punishing Nazis.

That is my point.

There is at least one poster on this thread is screaming that the jews were not the main victims of the Holocaust and more awareness needs to be paid to other Nazi victims.

I have been making the points that while all deaths are tragic, there are perfectly understandable reasons why the genocide of the Jewish people, and to a lesser extent Romani and other supposed undesirables still grip our imagination in a way that POW and civilian deaths from starvation, deprivation, and slave labor do not.

[Cypress]

About the same. WWII was more than the Nazis. We had the Japanese too and the Rape of Nanking. That counts as "ethnic". More history about the Spanish raping and pillaging in South and Central America versus the English colonies in the north. France had some but they needed cash for their wars.

Let's face it, most history is about wars and conflicts. Peace takes a sentence at most. Something like "There was peace for ten years before war broke out again"

Even the Space Race was a conflict. The Hypersonic missile North Korea just flew makes me wonder what our guys have under wraps.

Industrialization created civil conflict with the Luddites being among the most famous and Trump equally looking backwards the most recent example.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-58729701

The good news is that, aside from some hot spots, the world has been more at peace than any time before and has been all this century. The problems a conflicts between emerging nations. China not only is asserting its own version of the Monroe Doctrine, but is flexing its muscles to assert dominance in the region.

I think it's important for American students to have a grasp of the world at large. If that's the intention of these new laws, then I'm all for them.

There are practical reasons to study world history and culture, as opposed to a relentless focus on the history of western Europe and United States.

If we are going to compete with China, and India, it behooves us to have a working knowledge of East Asian and South Asian history, culture, intellectual and religious traditions.

[Doc Dutch]

That is my point.

There is at least one poster on this thread is screaming that the jews were not the main victims of the Holocaust and more awareness needs to be paid to other Nazi victims.

I have been making the points that while all deaths are tragic, there are perfectly understandable reasons why the genocide of the Jewish people, and to a lesser extent Romani and other supposed undesirables still grip our imagination in a way that POW and civilian deaths from starvation, deprivation, and slave labor do not.

Isn't that "one person" antisemitic? Whenever a bigot screams about bigotry my noise filter kicks in and my sympathy meter drops to zero.

Genocides do get people's attention more. The Bosnian genocide, although small in number at about 8400, sticks because it was intentional. Just cold blooded mass murder of people to be killing them like vermin. People dying from war, especially disease and starvation that goes with war, while massive, do not reach the same level of "evil", for lack of a better word, that genocide does.

170,000+ people died in the Afghan War but that's war. No one was massacring others because of their religion or skin-tone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civili...%E2%80%932021)

During the War in Afghanistan, over 47,245 civilians, 66,000 to 69,000 Afghan military and police and more than 51,000 Taliban fighters have been killed as of April 2021. Overall the war has killed 171,000 to 174,000 people in Afghanistan. However, the death toll is possibly higher due to unaccounted deaths by "disease, loss of access to food, water, infrastructure, and/or other indirect consequences of the war."[1] The Cost of War project estimated in 2015 that the number who have died through indirect causes related to the war may be as high as 360,000 additional people based on a ratio of indirect to direct deaths in contemporary conflicts.[2]

[Doc Dutch]

There are practical reasons to study world history and culture, as opposed to a relentless focus on the history of western Europe and United States.

If we are going to compete with China, and India, it behooves us to have a working knowledge of East Asian and South Asian history, culture, intellectual and religious traditions.

Agreed. It fits Sun Tzu's ideology of knowing one's enemy competition.

One thing I like about the Japanese is that they take the Art of War and apply it to business since 'everything is war'.

No doubt they run their baseball teams the same way.

[Cypress]

Isn't that "one person" antisemitic? Whenever a bigot screams about bigotry my noise filter kicks in and my sympathy meter drops to zero.

Genocides do get people's attention more. The Bosnian genocide, although small in number at about 8400, sticks because it was intentional. Just cold blooded mass murder of people to be killing them like vermin. People dying from war, especially disease and starvation that goes with war, while massive, do not reach the same level of "evil", for lack of a better word, that genocide does.

170,000+ people died in the Afghan War but that's war. No one was massacring others because of their religion or skin-tone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civili...%E2%80%932021)

For sure, the only reason most Americans even know a single thing about the Balkans was the genocide, aka ethnic cleansing in the 1990s.

The sad fact is that genocide is just going to shock the public conscience more than centuries of starvation, summary execution, and death from deprivation in human conflicts.

The moral of the story is that there is no global Zionist plot to sweep the deaths of Russians, non-Jewish Poles and Serbians under the carpet.

[Cypress]

Before any poster accuses me of being a tool of the Zionist lobby, my position is that the Palestinian people have legitimate grievances, and some actions the Israeli government has taken constitute crimes against humanity.

[moon]

kaffer-kicker;

Your math is flawed. The Nazis murdered 2/3s of the Jews in Europe along with millions of others as you pointed out. About 11 million Euros were murdered of which 6 million, more than half, were Jews.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/conte...-the-holocaust
In 1933, the Jewish population of Europe stood at over nine million. Most European Jews lived in countries that Nazi Germany would occupy or influence during World War II. By the end of the war in 1945, the Germans and their allies and collaborators killed nearly two out of every three European Jews as part of the "Final Solution."...

...While Jews were the priority target of Nazi racism, other groups within Germany were persecuted for racial reasons, including Roma View This Term in the Glossary (then commonly called "Gypsies"), Afro-Germans, and people with mental or physical disabilities. By the end of the war, the Germans and their Axis partners murdered between 250,000 and 500,000 Roma. And between 1939 and 1945, they murdered at least 250,000 mentally or physically disabled patients, mainly German and living in institutions, in the so-called Euthanasia Program.

As Nazi tyranny spread across Europe, the Germans and their collaborators persecuted and murdered millions of other people seen as biologically inferior or dangerous. Approximately 3.3 million Soviet prisoners of war were murdered or died of starvation, disease, neglect, or brutal treatment. The Germans shot tens of thousands of non-Jewish members of the Polish intelligentsia, murdered the inhabitants of hundreds of villages in “pacification” raids in Poland and the Soviet Union, and deported millions of Polish and Soviet civilians to perform forced labor under conditions that caused many to die.


https://www.history.com/topics/world.../the-holocaust
To the anti-Semitic Nazi leader Adolf Hitler, Jews were an inferior race, an alien threat to German racial purity and community. After years of Nazi rule in Germany, during which Jews were consistently persecuted, Hitler’s “final solution”—now known as the Holocaust—came to fruition under the cover of World War II, with mass killing centers constructed in the concentration camps of occupied Poland. Approximately six million Jews and some 5 million others, targeted for racial, political, ideological and behavioral reasons, died in the Holocaust. More than one million of those who perished were children.

You're out of date. You should read threads before dumping in them.

You'll find that the accretion theory of the solar system is no longer authoritative either.

[moon]

There is at least one poster on this thread is screaming that the jews were not the main victims of the Holocaust and more awareness needs to be paid to other Nazi victims.

Certainly far more of the victims were non-Jewish. It's likely true that Jews were the largest ethnic group of victims- but that's as far as it goes. You can continue to try to subvert the truth of the Holocaust- but the time will come for your acceptance and apologies. 6 million of up to 20 million is not the ' main ' percentage.