Alternate Holocaust narrative

[Lightbringer]

When I was in school, I was taught that the Holocaust involved Nazis rounding up and exterminating six million Jews in concentration camps.

But Texas, being the progressive openminded state that it is has insisted that texts teach an alternate narrative. Maybe some 'conservatives' here can lay out those alternative narratives. I'm interested.

I don't believe you remember what you were taught.

[moon]

Right, anyone who says there were 42,000 death camps really is not educated on WW2. The Nazis only built a few death camps equipped with zyclon gas Chambers for purposes of mass extermination.

All in Poland.

US Holocaust Museum does research on the broad range of Nazi atrocities which are outside the scope of genocide and Death camps. Moon is attempting to include all the slave labor facilities, concentration prison camps, and ghettos across Europe, and lump them in with the genocide being implemented at the death camps.

Th figure of 42,000 is as reported on the website of the Holocaust Museum that you linked to and continually offer as authoritative reference. Don't you read your own links ? If you are deliberately trying to diminish the content of the Holocaust Museum site then why ?
I believe it was also you that claimed that the Roma and Gypsies are the same people. Do you have some sort of ' embarrassment cut-off valve ', like the Tranquilizer fool ?

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

So it did- but it also involved the rounding up and extermination of up to 14 million other minorities-- Roma, Gypsies , coloured folk, the handicapped , etc ., anybody considered a threat to the purity of the white Aryan ' race'.
You should have been taught that the slaughter of Jews is known as ' the Shoah ' and that of the Gypsies as ' the Devouring ' etc., components of the overall Holocaust . The Holocaust was never a Jewish-only episode, Jews forming fewer than a third of its victims.

only jews matter to concart. j.l.m.

[moon]

only jews matter to concart. j.l.m.

Apparently so- and that's far from uncommon. However, are these people too silly to realize that the revised figures of up to 20 million Holocaust victims might include many more Jewish victims ?
Not that that matters to anybody that doesn't differentiate between victims on spurious grounds.

[Iolo/Penderyn]

For sure, that is why I specifically said the Jews were the only major ethnic group targeted for extermination from the continent.

I have repeatedly noted that the US National Holocaust museum acknowledges the genocide of Romani and other minorities 'undesirables'. I actually have posts on this board about the genocide of the Romani.

I think it is almost universally understood in the educated world that the Nazis murdered more than just the Jews.

The sad fact is that the murder of 200,000 Romani and 100,000 disabled people is just not going to get exactly the same, equivalent amount of press as the extermination of six million Jews from the continent.


As for the starvation of over one million Soviet prisoners of war, I probably have more posts about that than anyone on this board. Even though it is not technically part of the genocide that defines the Holocaust, I have started that it is a topic worthy of more research and public awareness.

Also worth awareness is the way Stalin treated Soviet POWs when they got back to Russia. A lot of them were shipped to the Gulag for the purported crime of treason in surrendering.


Now, if you traveled the planet and added up the number of memorials to Soviet versus Jewish victims of Hitler, I think monuments to Soviet victims would win hands down. You cannot throw a rock in Russia or Belarus without hitting a monument to the sacrifices of Soviet soldiers and civilians due to Nazi aggression.

In contrast, to my knowledge there is only one, modest monument in Belarus acknowledging the genocide of one million Byelorussian Jews -- their fellow citizens.

So on a global scale and taken as a whole, I am not convinced by the argument that people have forgotten the sacrifices of Soviet citizens in WW2

Well, I do get the impression that most Americans think only the USA fought in the War, and I've never had any communication with zionists that suggested that anyone but Jews was killed by the nazis, but perhaps I move in the wrong circles! I wasn't suggesting for a moment that you yourself were unaware of these things, though it is certainly my impression that far more Soviet prisoners than Jews were murdered.

[Tranquillus in Exile]

it is certainly my impression that far more Soviet prisoners than Jews were murdered.

In very round figures, some 3 million Soviet POWs died in German captivity.

https://russia-insider.com/en/deaths...orers-184/5770

[Mott the Hoople]

How about we listen to John McWhorter then? Do you agree that he might just know more than either of us?

John McWhorter: Ignore the Left's gaslighting, it's not racist to criticize Critical Race Theory

https://hotair.com/john-s-2/2021/06/...theory-n397442

Who said anything about criticizing CRT? In no way shape or form did I even imply that.

I’m pointing out that CRT has become a right wing political football used for political fear mongering by the right and had little in the way of fact to support their fear mongering.

[PostmodernProphet]

It's funny how quickly a thread can steer from it's original intent when one poster with an agenda decides that this thread is fodder for their crusade.

isn't that the very essence of an alternate Holocaust narrative.......there are really only two alternates that are at issue...one from those who wish the Holocaust had been successful and one from everyone else......

[Mott the Hoople]

Here’s a good read on it. By way of introduction to the author he’s a (black) intellectual, Ivy league professor, NY Times writer, Trump hating Democrat and author. This isn’t to say his voice is the only one on the topic but he does an excellent job of delving deeper into CRT and all it entails.


https://johnmcwhorter.substack.com/p...t-to-criticize

Again this is not my point. What academic premise is above criticism? None I’m aware of. Academics pick and parse that shit to death so obviously they don’t believe it’s above criticism and though the article you provided is an interesting read it’s not what I asked you for which was a primary source document explaining what CRT is. This is not a primary source document.

[Cypress]

Well, I do get the impression that most Americans think only the USA fought in the War, and I've never had any communication with zionists that suggested that anyone but Jews was killed by the nazis, but perhaps I move in the wrong circles! I wasn't suggesting for a moment that you yourself were unaware of these things, though it is certainly my impression that far more Soviet prisoners than Jews were murdered.

I have never met an educated American who thinks only Jews were murdered by the Nazis.

But there undoubtedly are a lot of rubes who couldn't give a rat's ass about history.

Anyone who visits this nation's foremost source of Holocaust information - the US National Holocaust Museum - will be quickly disabused of any notion only Jews were murdered.

The deliberate starvation of Soviet POWs deserves more global attention. But the USA was never going to make much of an effort to acknowledge it because the Soviet Union was perceived to be a dangerous cold war enemy. What are the odds the American government was going to start up educational efforts about Soviet soldiers?

Even in their own country, freed Soviet POWs could not look forward to much sympathy. Stalin thought any Soviet soldier who surrendered was suspect, and possibly a traitor. A lot of freed Soviet POWs went from Nazi prison camps straight to the Gulag.

[cancel2 2022]

Who said anything about criticizing CRT? In no way shape or form did I even imply that.

I’m pointing out that CRT has become a right wing political football used for political fear mongering by the right and had little in the way of fact to support their fear mongering.

John McWhorter, Glenn Loury, Wilfred Reilly, and Coleman Hughes have all challenged the critical race theorists to debate—and none has accepted. Why is that?

The backlash against CRT will likely come as a surprise to many adherents of the intellectual Left, who have become accustomed to dominance over our public institutions. They perceive any challenge to the dominant ideology as an affront, then search to backfill their preferences with high-minded concerns about “free speech” and “academic freedom.” For the woke and their enablers in the media, there is no greater offense than transgression against The Narrative.

They better get used to it. The “anti-woke” movement is gaining momentum and building an infrastructure to contest this ideology in government, schools, and academia. The critical race theorists’ strategic response—refusing to debate and hoping critics will go away—won’t work. Eventually, the public will recognize their “critical race fragility” for what it is: a prickly refusal to submit one’s ideas to vigorous public debate, often characterized by projection, emotional flagellation, and poor argumentation. Against the critical race theorists, we have begun to marshal investigative reporting, lawsuits, legislation, and parental activism—all in defense of American principles.

https://www.city-journal.org/the-lef...al-race-theory

[moon]

John McWhorter, Glenn Loury, Wilfred Reilly, and Coleman Hughes have all challenged the critical race theorists to debate—and none has accepted. Why is that?

You're in the wrong thread, maggot- not that such trivialities will detract from your agenda.

[Iolo/Penderyn]

I have never met an educated American who thinks only Jews were murdered by the Nazis.

But there undoubtedly are a lot of rubes who couldn't give a rat's ass about history.

Anyone who visits this nation's foremost source of Holocaust information - the US National Holocaust Museum - will be quickly disabused of any notion only Jews were murdered.

The deliberate starvation of Soviet POWs deserves more global attention. But the USA was never going to make much of an effort to acknowledge it because the Soviet Union was perceived to be a dangerous cold war enemy. What are the odds the American government was going to start up educational efforts about Soviet soldiers?

Even in their own country, freed Soviet POWs could not look forward to much sympathy. Stalin thought any Soviet soldier who surrendered was suspect, and possibly a traitor. A lot of freed Soviet POWs went from Nazi prison camps straight to the Gulag.

The contrast between educated and other Americans is very marked, I think, and is a bit like the contrast between the two American Parties. I was taken to see the Belsen pictures as a young child, and have never quite got over it, though we knew about the concentration camps, which weren't made much of by Churchill. It shocks me deeply that we didn't drop arms for those in the Camps and Ghettoes to fight. Zionism, alas, was an understandable imitation of nazism when Jews who disagreed with them were being wiped out. The detailed figures for the nazi murders aren't knowable now, I think, but they certainly included vast numbers of Soviet citizens and Poles who weren't Jewish. Personally, I find American and Russian people equally likeable, but Republican Americans seem far more powerfully brainwashed than the Stalinists I used to argue with ever were.

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

Who said anything about criticizing CRT? In no way shape or form did I even imply that.

I’m pointing out that CRT has become a right wing political football used for political fear mongering by the right and had little in the way of fact to support their fear mongering.

children are being racially segregated at schools.

they're teaching racial stereotypes.

the left are the nazis.

[cawacko]

The contrast between educated and other Americans is very marked, I think, and is a bit like the contrast between the two American Parties. I was taken to see the Belsen pictures as a young child, and have never quite got over it, though we knew about the concentration camps, which weren't made much of by Churchill. It shocks me deeply that we didn't drop arms for those in the Camps and Ghettoes to fight. Zionism, alas, was an understandable imitation of nazism when Jews who disagreed with them were being wiped out. The detailed figures for the nazi murders aren't knowable now, I think, but they certainly included vast numbers of Soviet citizens and Poles who weren't Jewish. Personally, I find American and Russian people equally likeable, but Republican Americans seem far more powerfully brainwashed than the Stalinists I used to argue with ever were.

Curious how you are almost defining educated and uneducated Americans. I know the dictionary definition of being educated. One can grow up in NYC and being sent to $50K+/yr private school or sent to a prestigious boarding school, go to an Ivy and then head off to Wall St to work in I-Banking or maybe a hedge fund. Someone else may immigrate here with a high school education at best and start a small business and while they may not become rich themselves send their kids off to school who have a chance to do big things. Is the former so much better of a person because they are better educated?