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Thread: Reality check on electric cars

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    Quote Originally Posted by RB 60 View Post
    What do you mean I'm wrong? An electric Cobra is blasphemy!
    Nope, it is the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordberg View Post
    Nope, it is the future.
    It's sacrilege! An insult to both Carroll Shelby and the 1965 World Championship winning car he built. Ain't no way mine will ever be electric.
    Common sense is not a gift, it's a punishment because you have to deal with everyone who doesn't have it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RB 60 View Post
    What do you mean I'm wrong? An electric Cobra is blasphemy!
    I have to agree there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by katzgar View Post
    "Why do you hate coal, oil, or natural gas as fuels?" this is the dumbest question ever asked on the internet in its entirety.
    So...no answer, eh? Didn't think you had one. You just want to chant.
    "The atmosphere is among the factors that determines the Earth's atmosphere." --ZenMode
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordberg View Post
    Yes they slash pollutants.
    Rare earths can be mined cleaner, but the Russians are not doing it. The Chinese are not doing it. They are maxing profits. Battery components are in great demand for a lot more than cars.
    Define 'pollutant'.
    "The atmosphere is among the factors that determines the Earth's atmosphere." --ZenMode
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    Quote Originally Posted by chainbreak View Post
    Here's another reality check. Human caused global warming is destroying our planet. At an ever accelerating rate.
    Charging a Tesla can be done using a simply 240v outlet drawing 15A. At that rate, will take about 32 hours to fully charge from a fully drained battery.
    You can wire in higher current circuits, kind of like wiring a circuit for an arc welder. The maximum charging rate will draw 40A for the Model 3. You will need at last 8 gauge wire on a dedicated 240v circuit, as long as the connector is close to the breaker box. If it has to run some distance, you will need even thicker wire. Most electricians will charge you about $300-$500 to install one. Note this is the same demand as similar to that provided an electric stove. At the maximum rate, you can charge a fully drained Tesla to full charge in 12 hours.

    A 100A rated service entrance can handle it, so long as the mains are rated for that limit. Some older breaker boxes and fuse boxes have no main fuse or breaker. These can be susceptible to fire if the combined usage overloads the panel without overloading any single breaker. Such a fire is very dangerous, since it may take some time for the damage to accumulate to the point where the fuse on the transformer would blow (you'll hear a sound like a gunshot out by the power pole). Of course, by that time, the fire will likely have caused extensive damage to your house.

    Upgrading your electrical panel is safer, but it is expensive to pay an electrician to do. If you need to upgrade your service entrance to a 200A service, that will rather force the issue anyway. Everything, service entrance secondaries, meter, and distribution panel will all have to be upgraded.

    It can be done, but it's not necessarily a trivial circuit to add.

    Charging rate and current specifications source: Tesla Automotive Company.
    The Chevy Volt doesn't have quite the range, but it's charging characteristics are similar.
    "The atmosphere is among the factors that determines the Earth's atmosphere." --ZenMode
    "Donald has failed in almost every endeavor he has attempted. " --floridafan
    "Abortion is not a moral issue. " --BidenPresident
    "Propaganda can also be factual." --Flash
    "Even after being vaccinated, you shed virus particles." --Jerome
    "no slavery is forcing another into labor" -archives
    "Evs are much safer from fires" -- Nordberg
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    Quote Originally Posted by chainbreak View Post
    Here's another reality check. Human caused global warming is destroying our planet. At an ever accelerating rate.
    Define 'global warming'. It is not possible to measure the temperature of Earth.
    "The atmosphere is among the factors that determines the Earth's atmosphere." --ZenMode
    "Donald has failed in almost every endeavor he has attempted. " --floridafan
    "Abortion is not a moral issue. " --BidenPresident
    "Propaganda can also be factual." --Flash
    "Even after being vaccinated, you shed virus particles." --Jerome
    "no slavery is forcing another into labor" -archives
    "Evs are much safer from fires" -- Nordberg
    "Abortion has killed no one." -- LurchAddams

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    Quote Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    While I may be against battery cars, this is just so wrong, it's wrong.
    Some numbers are correct, others are quite wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    If you go with the Level 2 charging system this is correct. No home can do a 480 V 3 phase system and the Level 1 120 volt "trickle charge" is worthless. Most homes have a 200 amp service. Many newer homes go to 300 or 400 amps now. That service is single phase, not 3 phase but the power on the street is 3 phase. The full 75 amps is not normally used in charging, but rather is simply the sizing used for installation of the wiring and other devices in the circuit.
    The actual charge would be less.
    The maximum charging rate for a Model 3 Tesla is 30A. The charger will draw 40A to do this. That's about like adding an electric stove or arc welder circuit. Well within the means of many residential service entrances. Obviously, it should be a dedicated circuit. At least 8 ga wire should be used. I believe the code now requires GFCI protection for things like a car charger now. I'd have to check on that though.
    Quote Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    One should note that tankless water heaters take about the same or even more power than this charging unit, and those are frequently installed in homes now too.
    That really depends on the water heater. They can require as little as 15A @120V, or they may require as much as 150A @240V for large systems. A better comparison would be like installing a circuit to support an arc welder for MIG or TIG use.
    Quote Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    Bottom line, no a few Tesla stations won't overload the system in a typical neighborhood. It would require most of the homes to adopt one before that happens.
    It's not about the neighborhood. It's about what that transformer on the pole can provide, and the ratings of the service entrance, including the meter and maximum capability of the distribution panel.
    Quote Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    I don't know where this guy lives, but the average price in the US for a kwh--right now, today outside California, Alaska, or Hawaii--is about $0.13. Even the higher priced areas are under $0.20 for the most part. Nowhere is a kilowatt hour costing $1.16. Even in Germany with one of the world's highest electricity prices a kwh doesn't come close to that (it's about $0.35).
    According to the EIA, typical rates in 2021 are nowhere near as high as $1.16. The cheapest rate is in Oklahoma, at 8.92 cents per kwh. The most expensive is Hawaii, at 30.55 cents per kwh. The average rate is 12.7 cents per kwh. Therefore, according to the EIA, that claim by MAGA and associated comparisons are just flat wrong. He is correct on the charging times required though.
    Quote Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    So, this guy's rant is full of mistakes and bullshit. I still think battery cars are stupid though...
    An opinion. It also happens to match my opinion. I'll take gasoline or diesel over battery cars any day. I like the ability to only require five minutes to refuel.
    "The atmosphere is among the factors that determines the Earth's atmosphere." --ZenMode
    "Donald has failed in almost every endeavor he has attempted. " --floridafan
    "Abortion is not a moral issue. " --BidenPresident
    "Propaganda can also be factual." --Flash
    "Even after being vaccinated, you shed virus particles." --Jerome
    "no slavery is forcing another into labor" -archives
    "Evs are much safer from fires" -- Nordberg
    "Abortion has killed no one." -- LurchAddams

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordberg View Post
    Nope, it is the future.
    Nope. It is the present.
    "The atmosphere is among the factors that determines the Earth's atmosphere." --ZenMode
    "Donald has failed in almost every endeavor he has attempted. " --floridafan
    "Abortion is not a moral issue. " --BidenPresident
    "Propaganda can also be factual." --Flash
    "Even after being vaccinated, you shed virus particles." --Jerome
    "no slavery is forcing another into labor" -archives
    "Evs are much safer from fires" -- Nordberg
    "Abortion has killed no one." -- LurchAddams

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    Quote Originally Posted by Into the Night View Post
    So...no answer, eh? Didn't think you had one. You just want to chant.
    perhaps one day you will learn just how stupid you are, after all people have been telling you you are stupid all your life.
    Why Biden? Because Fuck You that's why. Barack Obama has a Grammy, an Emmy, a Nobel Prize, 2 terms as President and a Twitter account.

    Donald Trump has 2 impeachments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by katzgar View Post
    perhaps one day you will learn just how stupid you are, after all people have been telling you you are stupid all your life.
    You'll be long dead from an overdose before you could see it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Dillon View Post
    I'll be long dead from an overdose before you could see it.
    yup
    Why Biden? Because Fuck You that's why. Barack Obama has a Grammy, an Emmy, a Nobel Prize, 2 terms as President and a Twitter account.

    Donald Trump has 2 impeachments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Into the Night View Post
    Charging a Tesla can be done using a simply 240v outlet drawing 15A. At that rate, will take about 32 hours to fully charge from a fully drained battery.
    You can wire in higher current circuits, kind of like wiring a circuit for an arc welder. The maximum charging rate will draw 40A for the Model 3. You will need at last 8 gauge wire on a dedicated 240v circuit, as long as the connector is close to the breaker box. If it has to run some distance, you will need even thicker wire. Most electricians will charge you about $300-$500 to install one. Note this is the same demand as similar to that provided an electric stove. At the maximum rate, you can charge a fully drained Tesla to full charge in 12 hours.

    A 100A rated service entrance can handle it, so long as the mains are rated for that limit. Some older breaker boxes and fuse boxes have no main fuse or breaker. These can be susceptible to fire if the combined usage overloads the panel without overloading any single breaker. Such a fire is very dangerous, since it may take some time for the damage to accumulate to the point where the fuse on the transformer would blow (you'll hear a sound like a gunshot out by the power pole). Of course, by that time, the fire will likely have caused extensive damage to your house.

    Upgrading your electrical panel is safer, but it is expensive to pay an electrician to do. If you need to upgrade your service entrance to a 200A service, that will rather force the issue anyway. Everything, service entrance secondaries, meter, and distribution panel will all have to be upgraded.

    It can be done, but it's not necessarily a trivial circuit to add.

    Charging rate and current specifications source: Tesla Automotive Company.
    The Chevy Volt doesn't have quite the range, but it's charging characteristics are similar.
    Well, this is all wrong... I am a master electrician and I do this stuff all the time.

    If the circuit pulls 40 amps 8 is allowed for any length of run until, if calculated, the voltage due to resistance in the wire has caused about a 10% drop. Usually, you do it at around 5%. That only occurs with runs of hundreds of feet like in big industrial buildings. TWH 75 degree wire is rated for 50 amps (table 310.16). But, that's only if the unit is rated at 40 amps. If the nameplate says different, then you wire to that value.

    A charging service in an enclosed garage must be more than 24" off the floor of the garage or it will have to be in a class 1 division 1 hazardous location enclosure (NEMA 4X or equivalent). That is grotesquely expensive. This requirement is to avoid potential gasoline vapors in the garage collecting near the floor that could be ignited by a spark from the electrical system. GFI is not required except on receptacles in a garage.

    All services require a service disconnect and have since at least the 30's. Even really old Edison fused ones have a service disconnect, usually a fused throw switch or pull block with fuses. Anything from about the late 40's on uses breakers and there is always a main disconnect.

    When installing anything new in an existing service the requirement is that the new circuit can be fit into the existing panel, or a sub panel has to be installed. The new circuit, something large like a Tesla charging station, should have a load calc done on it to see if the service can handle it. That may or may not be done depending on who's installing it. If the station is nameplate rated for 75 amps, that's the wire sizing and breaker size you install for. Doesn't matter if it pulls just 40 amps when running normally, you size to the load data provided on the unit or in the manufacturer's provided data.

    You also have to meet the requirements in section 625 of the NEC for these.

    For welders, they're a bit weird. They have a full load amp rating and a duty cycle. Table 630.11 shows that for the first unit--like in a home-- you size the system to .71 of the full load rating for a typical 50% duty cycle welder. The assumption here is that the welder is operated intermittently so the electric supply won't heat as much as it would if the full load were continuously applied. The overload (eg., breaker rating) must be full load or greater not exceeding twice the load rating. So for a 100 amp welder the wiring can be rated for 71 amps and a 100 amp breaker used, but a larger breaker say a 125 could be used.

    For a single welder, you can go with the Ieff off the nameplate if one is provided.

    This is required for all types of welding units. If multiple welders are present on a circuit it gets a little more complicated.

    A new service runs a couple thousand dollars minimum, and requires permits. If over 200 amps, most jurisdictions will require an engineer's stamp on the drawings for it. That'll run you easily another thousand. Underground upgrades are more expensive because of the trenching and new SE cable having to be installed. Overhead drops end at the weather head on the roof so there is less expense there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NiftyNiblick View Post
    Can't read MAGA's post but the instrumentation on those things must be awesome.

    Check battery.
    Check tire pressure.
    Check reality.
    ^The definition of MORON.

    "When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."


    A lie doesn't become the truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good just because it is accepted by a majority.
    Author: Booker T. Washington



    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
    Unless you just can't stand the idea of "ni**ers" teaching white kids.


    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    Address the topic, not other posters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by katzgar View Post
    Your need to be an opioid addicted moron is revolting
    ^The definition of.......... I R O N Y!!!
    "When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."


    A lie doesn't become the truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good just because it is accepted by a majority.
    Author: Booker T. Washington



    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
    Unless you just can't stand the idea of "ni**ers" teaching white kids.


    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    Address the topic, not other posters.

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