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Thread: 7 mind-blowing facts that show why employment in the US is the worst in the developed

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Hello T. A. Gardner,
    Non-union workers in a union shop are scabs every day.
    Why? Because they make their own deal with the employer instead of going through the union?

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    Hello T. A. Gardner,

    Quote Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    Exactly. But unions are losing members and don't want that so they want the Democrats and government to force workers into their unions.
    The only unions losing members are in rtw union-busting states.
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    Hello T. A. Gardner,

    Quote Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    Why? Because they make their own deal with the employer instead of going through the union?
    Because they take the benefits fought for by the union without paying dues.

    The only thing that gives the union power is if all the workers are in.

    It's either all-in or nothing.

    Nothing is where the employer holds all the cards and each worker is on his own to try to negotiate better terms of employment. Essentially that places the worker in a powerless position. All employers seek to create a work flow system which ensures that no worker is essential and any worker can be eliminated at any time without impacting production. This gives the employer all the cards and the worker has nothing.

    It is not in the interest of an employer to recognize excellent work. Bigger profits can be had by screwing the workers, getting by with mediocre work, and spending money on PR and marketing instead to convince customers they are getting value in place of actually delivering value.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Hello T. A. Gardner,



    There is no government fiat. The only thing that would force union membership would be an agreement between the union and the shop.

    Name the law.
    Today these are called "Agency shop laws"

    An agency shop is a workplace where even if workers do not join the union, they must still pay the equivalent of dues to the union. In collective bargaining agreements with an agency shop provision, nonmembers of a union are required to pay the membership fee or a representation fee for contract negotiations, administration, and grievance processing. Payment of the membership or representation fees often becomes a condition of employment and those who refuse to pay are subject to discharge.
    https://definitions.uslegal.com/a/agency-shop/

    https://www.thoughtco.com/closed-sho...nition-4155834

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    An ideal business model (for profit consideration) does not rely on essential workers but instead relies on marketing and PR. The best business would actually have no workers at all. Business only hires labor if it is not possible to run the business with no workers.

    Large modern business would rather spend millions on seeking ways to eliminate labor than to pay labor more. The best way to eliminate labor is through systems engineering. Design a system which relies on the fewest number of high skilled workers as possible. Make all other jobs low-skill so those people are easily replaceable. Have enough workers so that many are working fewer than full-time. Any worker who leaves can easily be replaced by existing workers by increasing their hours until more suckers can be hired.

    Even the high-skill workers can be treated much the same way, so that nobody is essential to the business. That's the goal. Big business seeks to place itself in the best possible negotiating position with labor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Hello T. A. Gardner,



    Because they take the benefits fought for by the union without paying dues.

    The only thing that gives the union power is if all the workers are in.

    It's either all-in or nothing.

    Nothing is where the employer holds all the cards and each worker is on his own to try to negotiate better terms of employment. Essentially that places the worker in a powerless position. All employers seek to create a work flow system which ensures that no worker is essential and any worker can be eliminated at any time without impacting production. This gives the employer all the cards and the worker has nothing.

    It is not in the interest of an employer to recognize excellent work. Bigger profits can be had by screwing the workers, getting by with mediocre work, and spending money on PR and marketing instead to convince customers they are getting value in place of actually delivering value.
    That may or may not be true. It is also untrue in professional and trade unions that solidarity is necessary for success. Only low skill, and unskilled workers need union solidarity to make things work.

    In professional and trade unions, the employer is buying known goods. That is, the employer knows that the union members have certain levels of skill that the union is backing and that means they take less risk hiring that sort of worker. Those unions don't have to rely on solidarity because they're selling point is their members are vetted for the skills they need to do the job.

    It is in the interest of the employer to do excellent work, particularly in the professional and trade sectors. For example, construction requires a certain level of quality that is inspected by government. A contractor that doesn't meet that level is going to go out of business PDQ. Aircraft and automobile manufacturers want a level of quality in their products or they know they won't sell.

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    Hello T. A. Gardner,

    Quote Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    That is all negotiated between the union and the employer.

    The reason for the decline in union membership is greedy corporations closing down factories and offshoring labor. That's why Flint Michigan is now a poverty city.

    It was the nuclear option of labor relations. It screwed America, but the corporate executives got raises and bonuses, and it made the super-rich investors happy because their wealth soared.
    Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Hello T. A. Gardner,
    The only unions losing members are in rtw union-busting states.


    Gotta use the bullshit flag on that one.

    Some public-workers unions are experiencing steep losses of members and fees, dips largely triggered by a 2018 Supreme Court ruling that gave members an out. The Washington Federation of State Employees lost fees from nearly 7,000 nonmembers after the ruling.
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-som...20the%20ruling.

    News cycles, even persistent ones, aside, America’s public-sector unions — whose many millions in annual compulsory dues, often dunned from the paychecks of those averse to progressive and Leftist agendas, are and for decades have been the lifeblood of Democratic politics — and those who’ve grown accustomed to their largesse are in for a hell of a time.
    They are hemorrhaging members.
    The reason is largely due to the United States Supreme Court’s 2018 Janus v. AFSCME ruling, in which an irked Illinois government worker, Mark Janus (a thoroughly nice guy, profiled in this 2019 National Review cover story) sued to protect his First Amendment rights, which, if protected, would mean an end to the practice of public employees being forced to pay dues to AFSCME, SEIU, AFT, NEA, and other union bigfoots that used the reliable stream of plentiful boodle to play and pay for — and indeed rule — partisan politics at national, state, and local levels.
    https://www.nationalreview.com/2021/...-thanks-janus/

    Would you want to work for an employer who ignores your contributions? What about one who only promotes on seniority? The answer to these questions explains why union membership keeps falling: unions have not adapted to the modern workplace.

    Collective bargaining means one contract covers everyone. Such contracts do not reflect individual contributions. Instead unionized companies typically base promotions and raises on seniority, not merit. Unions designed this system for the industrial economy of the 1930s.
    https://www.heritage.org/jobs-and-la...ship-declining

    Essentially, the reason unions are hemorrhaging members is because their leadership's thinking is mired in the 1950's at the latest. During the Industrial Age, most workers in most fields needed only a limited skills set that could be taught in a matter of weeks to a new employee. Workers were largely interchangeable and most work was highly repetitive with a limited scope.

    That has changed dramatically in the Electronics Age. Workers need a much broader set of skills, many not easily learned, and they are often used flexibly, employers expecting them to do a wide variety of tasks.

    Unions still want workers promoted on seniority. Many unions limit workers to just a narrowly defined job skill set by the contracts they make. Workers are also more politically aware today with the mass of easily obtained information they have available. This means more workers are unwilling and against the political views of the union leadership and don't want their dues going to politicians or political causes they despise. The union leadership on the other hand ignores this at their own risk. Members walk when they see their dues being misused.

    It isn't "rtw union-busting states" leading this debacle. Most of those have be Right-to-work for decades. What's changing is union members are becoming more aware and savvy and are now challenging their unions forcing them to stop doing things they see as wrong. That's what the Beck v. Communications Workers of America and the Janus ruling are about. Workers standing up to their union and saying You can't do whatever you want with my dues! Many vote with their feet when given the chance and leave.

    Unions are archaic anachronisms of a bygone era and out of step with the times. They need to change how they do business or they will become completely irrelevant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Hello Flash,

    If it is the union forcing it to happen then it is not the government forcing it to happen.

    The employer complies not because of government intervention but because of the threat of strike.

    Employer makes deal not to hire outside of union in order to get striking workers back on the job.

    If employer renegs on that word, workers go back on strike.

    No government involved.
    I don't think that is accurate. The government gives unions the power to organize and bargain collectively and the state determines whether the unions can have an open or closed shop. Those states with right-to-work laws prohibit closed shops.

    A 2018 court decision (Janus) prohibits public employees from being required to join the union or having fees taken from their pay as a violation of 1st Amendment free speech rights.

    Teachers' unions lost a lot of members after this decision.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Hello T. A. Gardner,



    That is all negotiated between the union and the employer.

    The reason for the decline in union membership is greedy corporations closing down factories and offshoring labor. That's why Flint Michigan is now a poverty city.

    It was the nuclear option of labor relations. It screwed America, but the corporate executives got raises and bonuses, and it made the super-rich investors happy because their wealth soared.
    No, that's because Democrats and unions killed the Golden Goose in Michigan. The Democrats saw industry there as a cash cow and kept raising taxes and fees on them to fund their social-welfare state. The Unions thought they had a lock on labor and priced it out of the market.

    The auto industry left because it was cheaper for them to build new plants with new machinery in Right-to-work states or out of the country than pay the outrageous wages the UAW demanded and update old and outdated factories.

    I can't link to this, but I remember a 60 Minutes segment that ran in the late 80's. They profiled this twenty-something kid working in an auto plant in Michigan. His job was to put doors on cars as they came down the assembly line. He had a high school diploma. He was making over $70 an hour (in the late 80's) including lots of benefits. They showed his nice home on a lake, his summer cottage, his boat, truck, car, etc.
    But the plant was closing and moving to Mexico. The kid lamented that he couldn't find another job that paid anywhere close to what he got at the plant. He had no real skills or education outside of using an impact driver to put nuts on doors on cars.
    The UAW ass fucked this guy by overpricing his labor so badly that the company couldn't afford to keep the plant open.

    Then they showed the plant in Mexico. There was a Mexican guy, a bit older, doing the exact same job, the exact same way with the exact same equipment and he was thrilled to be making a whole dollar an hour.

    That was the UAW's fault, not the auto manufacturer's.

    The UAW did nothing to help the guy in Michigan get more skills or education. They did nothing to give the guy a real career. Instead, mired in 1930's thinking, they just assumed the plant would always be there, the union would have a lock on labor at it, and the company had no choice but to pay the wages the union demanded. When all that proved wrong, that kid got screwed by his union because they didn't have any alternative for him to continue working at his grossly overpriced wage.

    It was also totally unthinkable that Michigan would ever be Right-to-work, but today it is. Times change. The unions haven't kept up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geeko Sportivo View Post
    There you go picking on an entire generation again!
    That's just stupid and ignorant!

    I know people from every generation, and even though there may be some characteristics that are unique to one generation vs. another, I've never seen a generation yet that feels more entitled than any other, or lazy as you may be trying to suggest.

    Do you have children or grandchildren of your own prophet?
    I do......I consider "millennial" to be descriptive of a mindset rather than a generation
    Isaiah 6:5
    Woe to me! I cried. I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    Why? Because they make their own deal with the employer instead of going through the union?
    Talk about naive
    Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. Albert Einstein

    America's future is bright, not white



    ברוך השם

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    And still people from every other country are dying to come here to work.
    Despite it all, this is still the land of opportunity.
    Well at least as long as liberals are idle on the sidelines.
    "Those who vote decide nothing. Those who count the vote decide everything." Joseph Stalin
    The USA has lost WWIV to China with no other weapons but China Virus and some cash to buy democrats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by guno View Post
    Talk about naive
    I guess being nave is an issue you'll have to deal with. Some people, like you, are just naturally clueless...

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    Quote Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    Because I get two pensions and have plenty of money to sit on my ass and do nothing but annoy you on this forum if I so choose. I do electrical service work to keep busy and the cash is all gravy, but I need the exercise.

    What's your excuse for being a deadbeat? At least I'm not feeding at the welfare trough like you...
    I am not a young person, and I'm retired, and I have got a good pension from my Union IBEW.
    The Big Steal = The Big Lie.

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