Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 19

Thread: The American Trail Of Tears

  1. #1 | Top
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    29,568
    Thanks
    20,217
    Thanked 15,650 Times in 10,718 Posts
    Groans
    0
    Groaned 5,318 Times in 4,620 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default The American Trail Of Tears

    The idea for this thread came after listening to this hour-long podcast at

    Ben Franklin's World

    I know most of the time when people are wanting political discussion and a sort of instant political gratification, there isn't a strong urge to read or listen to any links that eat up a lot of time, so don't worry if you don't feel like listening to the whole podcast. I'll fill you in on what I found interesting. I'd like to hear your take on it whether or not you decide to listen to the podcast. Naturally, if you do decide to take the time to listen to it, we can have a more informed conversation.

    Host and historian Liz Covart produces these podcasts every week, and I find them fascinating. Each week, she interviews an author about a history book they've written. This episode she interviews Nicholas Guyatt, a British author who studied the racial dilemma in America from an outsider's perspective. His book is called: Bind Us Apart: How Enlightened Americans Invented Racial Segregation.

    He notes that the perception of solving the race problem was different from the European perspective than it was in America. Anti-abolitionists in Europe were free to say slavery was wrong because they didn't have a lot of slavery in Europe when America was born. They never had to face the question of what to do with the newly freed slaves. But it was different in America because we had slavery from the beginning and that presented a huge problem. If we abolished slavery, what is to be done with the newly freed black people?

    It is a challenge we wrestled with and never really solved, but not for the lack of trying. It was mirrored by the challenge of trying to force white 'civilized' ways on Native Americans.

    How do you integrate culturally different disadvantaged people into modern white European style society?

    One of the ideas was that you set them up in another place, provide knowledge of how to have an advanced life, and let them work it out themselves. A sort of 'benevolent segregation,' if you will. This is based on the assumption that the subjects of this idea would WANT to do this, which was not usually the case.

    Some abolitionists envisioned that former slaves would be happiest back in Africa. Many were actually deported or went willingly. America created our own colony in West Africa for this purpose. That is how the nation of Liberia came about. Eventually, Liberia had enough of the influence of the USA and declared independence just as America had done from England. So it seems the 'send 'em back to Africa' idea is nothing new. We already tried it between 1822 and 1861.

    It was also thought that Native Americans would be better off if they simply had their own place where they could sort of 'catch up' to American 'civilization' and not have the awkward struggle over who belongs where. The idea to relocate Native Americans west of the Mississippi so that whites could have one space and Native Americans could modernize in another before integrating was born of benevolence and not wanting to simply wipe them out, but lost any semblance of compassion when they disagreed and were then forced to go along with the idea. Native Americans were surreptitiously and brutally marched out west. Many died along the way or shortly thereafter. They never regained the same lives they had before white American intervention.

    The so-called Trail Of Tears was a tragically failed attempt at something that was originally conceived as a compassionate idea.

    The conclusion stands in stark clarity. Segregation might seem like a good idea, but it isn't when it is forced. Segregation worked fine as long as it was whites in Europe, Blacks in Africa and Native Americans in America. Europeans really had no right to come and take America from Native Americans. It was done by force. American Whites had no right to enslave African Blacks. That, too, was done by force. The results of all these forced changes were disastrous, and we are still living with the aftermath as we speak.

    That's why I found this podcast so interesting. Even though this all happened hundreds of years ago, it set up the struggles and racial issues we still have not resolved today.
    Last edited by PoliTalker; 09-26-2021 at 10:05 AM.
    Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to PoliTalker For This Post:

    evince (09-26-2021), guno (09-26-2021)

  3. #2 | Top
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    29,568
    Thanks
    20,217
    Thanked 15,650 Times in 10,718 Posts
    Groans
    0
    Groaned 5,318 Times in 4,620 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    As I listened to this podcast, I couldn't help but think of Cinnabar and others who envision a sort of segregation between the American left and right by the idea of splitting America into two nations, one conservative, the other liberal.

    And no, I don't think forced political segregation would work any better than forced racial segregation did.

    Really, our challenge is to accept the situation we have, our great big mix of cultures and ideas in one big nation, and figure out how to deal with it as it is, in the fairest way we can come up with.
    Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to PoliTalker For This Post:

    evince (09-26-2021)

  5. #3 | Top
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    29,568
    Thanks
    20,217
    Thanked 15,650 Times in 10,718 Posts
    Groans
    0
    Groaned 5,318 Times in 4,620 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    This is why I like history.

    Here is an unresolved issue that troubled our founders, and the unfinished business is now on our plates.

    If we can fix this, it would make America greater.
    Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to PoliTalker For This Post:

    evince (09-26-2021)

  7. #4 | Top
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    29,568
    Thanks
    20,217
    Thanked 15,650 Times in 10,718 Posts
    Groans
    0
    Groaned 5,318 Times in 4,620 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Our racial issues go right back to the founding of our nation.

    When the founders wrote "all men are created equal," they were not thinking of blacks.

    That created a great dilemma for America.

    We are still trying to resolve it.
    Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to PoliTalker For This Post:

    evince (09-26-2021)

  9. #5 | Top
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    143,360
    Thanks
    44,949
    Thanked 24,378 Times in 18,912 Posts
    Groans
    12
    Groaned 18,947 Times in 17,557 Posts
    Blog Entries
    8

    Default

    This big experiment of freedom can work


    We have failed to cling to facts our entire existence


    That is why we keep fighting this ridicules battle


    Truth

    Black people and others of color were never given equality


    If they had been this would have been over more than a century ago


    Every time they built something white racists were allowed to destroy or steal it


    Time to do this correctly once and for all


    No cheating


    It can’t be done without the flat out, cold, hard facts used to base our next steps on


    No more pandering to the racists


    Their tears are meaningless


    They are nothing but a speed bump to true progress


    Ignore their pain


    Their “happiness” has caused this mess


    We want them unhappy


    It means we are progressing

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to evince For This Post:

    Whythink (09-26-2021)

  11. #6 | Top
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    29,568
    Thanks
    20,217
    Thanked 15,650 Times in 10,718 Posts
    Groans
    0
    Groaned 5,318 Times in 4,620 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Hello evince,

    Quote Originally Posted by evince View Post
    This big experiment of freedom can work


    We have failed to cling to facts our entire existence


    That is why we keep fighting this ridicules battle


    Truth

    Black people and others of color were never given equality


    If they had been this would have been over more than a century ago


    Every time they built something white racists were allowed to destroy or steal it


    Time to do this correctly once and for all


    No cheating


    It can’t be done without the flat out, cold, hard facts used to base our next steps on


    No more pandering to the racists


    Their tears are meaningless


    They are nothing but a speed bump to true progress


    Ignore their pain


    Their “happiness” has caused this mess


    We want them unhappy


    It means we are progressing
    It's a good thought but it depends on the impossible. Racists and racism can't be eliminated. That's why this challenge has persisted throughout our history.

    We have to face the fact that we are unlikely to solve this within our lifetimes.

    But that doesn't mean we can do nothing about it.

    Because this is such a difficult problem, larger than a lifetime, we have to understand that we can make progress; and we must work to do what we can.

    It may not seem very rewarding. No instant gratification looms. but whatever we can do to push the needle further along is exactly what we must do.

    We just had a huge moment in history. We elected a black president. Many of us thought we had really made progress with that, and we truly did. What came next was almost predictable. Racism didn't take that lying down. Racism has experienced a resurgence because racism got really scared it was in the process of being wiped out. That's what elected Trump.
    Last edited by PoliTalker; 09-26-2021 at 11:28 AM.
    Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.

  12. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to PoliTalker For This Post:

    evince (09-26-2021), Tranquillus in Exile (09-26-2021)

  13. #7 | Top
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    29,568
    Thanks
    20,217
    Thanked 15,650 Times in 10,718 Posts
    Groans
    0
    Groaned 5,318 Times in 4,620 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Being that it is Sunday, I would suggest to give yourself a little break from posting for just one hour today, find yourself a comfy chair and the beverage of your choice, put this podcast on the stereo, and simply listen to this fascinating and thought provoking interview which cuts right to the heart of an issue America has never been able to resolve.

    Then come back and share your thoughts here.
    Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to PoliTalker For This Post:

    evince (09-26-2021)

  15. #8 | Top
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    143,360
    Thanks
    44,949
    Thanked 24,378 Times in 18,912 Posts
    Groans
    12
    Groaned 18,947 Times in 17,557 Posts
    Blog Entries
    8

    Default

    Yes the racists are never going away


    They need to be relentlessly shamed by this society


    Stomped into the gutter and kicked down into the sewer where they belong


    Never allowed any power what so ever



    Forever

  16. #9 | Top
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    29,568
    Thanks
    20,217
    Thanked 15,650 Times in 10,718 Posts
    Groans
    0
    Groaned 5,318 Times in 4,620 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Hello evince,

    Quote Originally Posted by evince View Post
    Yes the racists are never going away


    They need to be relentlessly shamed by this society


    Stomped into the gutter and kicked down into the sewer where they belong


    Never allowed any power what so ever



    Forever
    The American colonists who became abolitionists felt really bad about slavery and wanted it ended. But they were stumped about what to do with the emancipated slaves. They couldn't even envision them mixing into their society. The idea of segregation was popular. Without realizing it, their own racism affected their thinking.

    I never knew America began it's own colony in Africa. The early white Americans simply assumed the emancipated slaves would want their own place. They were wrong. Many emancipated slaves were born in America and wanted to stay. The 'send them back' idea never worked out.

    Today, we hear somebody talk about forced segregation and we think they are a racist.

    Hatred of racists is not going to do much to resolve racism.

    I think there needs to be more mixing and intermarriage. When people have mixed races in their own family it changes their perspective.

    We should promote mixed families.

    Maybe have some kind of government grant, a perk for interracial marriage.
    Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.

  17. The Following User Says Thank You to PoliTalker For This Post:

    evince (09-28-2021)

  18. #10 | Top
    Join Date
    Jun 2020
    Location
    Phoenix
    Posts
    14,796
    Thanks
    5
    Thanked 7,011 Times in 5,027 Posts
    Groans
    2
    Groaned 255 Times in 233 Posts

    Default

    Let me just comment on the Native American issue. This is far more complex than it is generally made out to be. Yes, there were serious cases of racism and injustice like the Trail of Tears, but there were far more cases of Native Americans simply making poor choices as political entities (tribes) and getting involved in the larger political picture of world affairs. Some examples:

    French and Indian war of 1753. This lasted about a decade. The French along with numerous tribes in what is now the New England area and adjacent Canada went to war with the British over various issues. It was also part of the European Seven Years War as well. The British won. They forced the French and Indians to cede land, repressed the losers in some cases, all the same exact things they'd do winning in Europe itself. The Indians picked sides wrong.

    War of 1812. Same thing. The Great Lakes tribes sided with the British. The US retained control of the region and forced land from the Indians for being the losers in that war. The Indians again, picked sides wrong.

    There was a great deal of this occurring as America grew. It wasn't like the US was looking to just commit genocide or conquest but rather the the Indians often made poor political decisions often on thin information not understanding the bigger picture.
    You want outright conquest and subjugation of indigenous people? That'd be Spain. They were brutal start to finish. Outright conquest was the norm often playing one side of native wars against the other then subjugating the side that helped Spain win. The whole Hacienda system was set up to turn the native population into slaves and landless peasants dependent on nobility for their subsistence.

  19. The Following User Says Thank You to T. A. Gardner For This Post:

    PoliTalker (09-27-2021)

  20. #11 | Top
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    143,360
    Thanks
    44,949
    Thanked 24,378 Times in 18,912 Posts
    Groans
    12
    Groaned 18,947 Times in 17,557 Posts
    Blog Entries
    8

    Default

    Racist need to go hide

    We can’t make them think good things instead of evil


    They need to keep their evil thoughts to themselves and leave decent society alone



    I would never condemn a child molester for their evil thoughts


    But I would want them beat to death if they acted on their evil thoughts


    I feel much the same about racists


    Note:

    I would not beat either one to death


    I might want that


    But I would settle for the laws and courts dealing with them


    You can’t integrate evil people into society


    But they do exist


    So they need to climb into some dark dank place and think their evil thoughts there



    NEVER ACT ON THOSE THOUGHTS


    and NEVER bother decent society with their evil thoughts

  21. The Following User Says Thank You to evince For This Post:

    PoliTalker (09-28-2021)

  22. #12 | Top
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    29,568
    Thanks
    20,217
    Thanked 15,650 Times in 10,718 Posts
    Groans
    0
    Groaned 5,318 Times in 4,620 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Hello T. A. Gardner,

    Quote Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    Let me just comment on the Native American issue. This is far more complex than it is generally made out to be. Yes, there were serious cases of racism and injustice like the Trail of Tears, but there were far more cases of Native Americans simply making poor choices as political entities (tribes) and getting involved in the larger political picture of world affairs. Some examples:

    French and Indian war of 1753. This lasted about a decade. The French along with numerous tribes in what is now the New England area and adjacent Canada went to war with the British over various issues. It was also part of the European Seven Years War as well. The British won. They forced the French and Indians to cede land, repressed the losers in some cases, all the same exact things they'd do winning in Europe itself. The Indians picked sides wrong.

    War of 1812. Same thing. The Great Lakes tribes sided with the British. The US retained control of the region and forced land from the Indians for being the losers in that war. The Indians again, picked sides wrong.

    There was a great deal of this occurring as America grew. It wasn't like the US was looking to just commit genocide or conquest but rather the the Indians often made poor political decisions often on thin information not understanding the bigger picture.
    You want outright conquest and subjugation of indigenous people? That'd be Spain. They were brutal start to finish. Outright conquest was the norm often playing one side of native wars against the other then subjugating the side that helped Spain win. The whole Hacienda system was set up to turn the native population into slaves and landless peasants dependent on nobility for their subsistence.
    A good comment. Thanks for sharing.

    It's true the Spanish were truly brutal in their conquests. More so than the British or the French. But that doesn't erase the fact that the indigenous people were displaced from their lands. Their societies were irreparably harmed.

    America is a diverse nation with the components of many cultures. Along with the benefits of all these cultures come the heavy lingering consequences of tremendous wrongs done. We are still in the process of resolving the issues.
    Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.

  23. The Following User Says Thank You to PoliTalker For This Post:

    evince (09-28-2021)

  24. #13 | Top
    Join Date
    Jun 2020
    Location
    Phoenix
    Posts
    14,796
    Thanks
    5
    Thanked 7,011 Times in 5,027 Posts
    Groans
    2
    Groaned 255 Times in 233 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Hello T. A. Gardner,



    A good comment. Thanks for sharing.

    It's true the Spanish were truly brutal in their conquests. More so than the British or the French. But that doesn't erase the fact that the indigenous people were displaced from their lands. Their societies were irreparably harmed.
    My point is, many indigenous people didn't have "lands." They had a loosely defined territory they operated in as hunter-gatherers in what amounted to a stone age society. Some, like the Apache, operated over a range in more than one established nation. These groups had no fixed towns, villages, or other attachments to the land. The Plains tribes followed the buffalo as herds migrated.
    For those that did have fixed villages, etc., in many cases--particularly on the Eastern US seaboard, they got involved and sided in European wars. If their side lost, they could see their land confiscated by the victors, a common practice in Europe at the time. Of course, they were harmed by that. That was the intent of the victors no different than if they were dealing with other Europeans.

    America is a diverse nation with the components of many cultures. Along with the benefits of all these cultures come the heavy lingering consequences of tremendous wrongs done. We are still in the process of resolving the issues.
    This amounts to a very broadly defined historian's fallacy. The social and legal mores of today cannot be applied to the distant past. We have to look at things back then as the people living back then did. So, while we can point to these occurrences in history, we're under no compunction to somehow right perceived wrongs that weren't wrongs at the time today for people that weren't there.
    It's the same fallacy used to support reparations for slavery.

  25. #14 | Top
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    29,568
    Thanks
    20,217
    Thanked 15,650 Times in 10,718 Posts
    Groans
    0
    Groaned 5,318 Times in 4,620 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Hello T. A. Gardner,

    Quote Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    My point is, many indigenous people didn't have "lands." They had a loosely defined territory they operated in as hunter-gatherers in what amounted to a stone age society. Some, like the Apache, operated over a range in more than one established nation. These groups had no fixed towns, villages, or other attachments to the land. The Plains tribes followed the buffalo as herds migrated.
    For those that did have fixed villages, etc., in many cases--particularly on the Eastern US seaboard, they got involved and sided in European wars. If their side lost, they could see their land confiscated by the victors, a common practice in Europe at the time. Of course, they were harmed by that. That was the intent of the victors no different than if they were dealing with other Europeans.
    Good observation. Well stated.

    Quote Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    This amounts to a very broadly defined historian's fallacy. The social and legal mores of today cannot be applied to the distant past. We have to look at things back then as the people living back then did. So, while we can point to these occurrences in history, we're under no compunction to somehow right perceived wrongs that weren't wrongs at the time today for people that weren't there.
    It's the same fallacy used to support reparations for slavery.
    I disagree. There was nothing righteous about taking land from people who were already there, and then pushing them out (killing them or causing deaths in the process) or otherwise imposing victor's will upon them. It may have been perceived as righteous by the then victors, but it certainly was not by the vanquished. To justify it by calling it historian's fallacy is nothing more than justification of history as written by the victors.

    There was nothing righteous about capturing humans by force and then turning them into slaves to be the property of other humans. Any attempt to justify this is merely an attempt to justify the existence of the USA, likely out of a fundamental belief that we can do no wrong, therefore have never done any wrong. And that is incorrect. All are capable of making mistakes which harm others.

    True history is not the history written by the victors.

    Justifying conquest by saying everybody else was doing it at the time is merely an expansion of the incorrect more of believing that two wrongs make a right.

    Just because someone else does something which is wrong does not make it OK to do the same thing.

    Two wrongs never made a right and they never will.
    Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.

  26. The Following User Says Thank You to PoliTalker For This Post:

    evince (09-28-2021)

  27. #15 | Top
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    143,360
    Thanks
    44,949
    Thanked 24,378 Times in 18,912 Posts
    Groans
    12
    Groaned 18,947 Times in 17,557 Posts
    Blog Entries
    8

    Default

    A more perfect Union


    You don’t become a better human or society by pasting over the moral infractions of your past and bypassing correcting them

  28. The Following User Says Thank You to evince For This Post:

    PoliTalker (09-28-2021)

Similar Threads

  1. Could Trump have Survived Bidens Trail of Tears?
    By tsuke in forum Current Events Forum
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 09-24-2021, 05:32 AM
  2. Biden's Trail of Tears
    By tsuke in forum Current Events Forum
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 09-22-2021, 10:34 AM
  3. Pocohontos ancestor enforced the Trail of Tears
    By Jim Eagle in forum General Politics Forum
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 12-04-2017, 08:17 AM
  4. Pocohontos ancestor enforced the Trail of Tears
    By Jim Eagle in forum General Politics Forum
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 12-03-2017, 06:46 PM
  5. Trail of tears
    By Cancel8 in forum General Politics Forum
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 01-07-2011, 10:49 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Rules

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •