Why Is There Something, Rather Than Nothing?--Sean M. Carroll

[Doc Dutch]

No, I don't believe that. Nor do I believe "God did it" is an answer to anything.

We already agreed that the randomness factor you are clinging to is not caused by magic yet you disagree with me that randomness are merely unknowns in a knowable universe. Why?

[BidenPresident]

We already agreed that the randomness factor you are clinging to is not caused by magic yet you disagree with me that randomness are merely unknowns in a knowable universe. Why?

Randomness is empirically quantifiable. It is not the absence of order.

[Doc Dutch]

Randomness is empirically quantifiable. It is not the absence of order.

Great. By what measure? The only one claiming absence of order is you. I'm saying the physical Universe is perfectly ordered.

[BidenPresident]

Great. By what measure? The only one claiming absence of order is you. I'm saying the physical Universe is perfectly ordered.

How do you prove it is perfectly ordered? Compared to what?

[Doc Dutch]

How do you prove it is perfectly ordered? Compared to what?

Extrapolation. Everything we know about the universe falls within the laws of physics. While there are some odd things going on with sub-atomic particles, so what? "A difference that makes no difference is no difference". It won't change how you and I live at the moment.

Maybe understanding that stuff will allow a mankind faster-than-light travel/warp space, but that's just unraveling another unknown. It doesn't affect your or my survival, the remainder of our lives or our eventual deaths.

[BidenPresident]

Extrapolation. Everything we know about the universe falls within the laws of physics. While there are some odd things going on with sub-atomic particles, so what? "A difference that makes no difference is no difference". It won't change how you and I live at the moment.

Maybe understanding that stuff will allow a mankind faster-than-light travel/warp space, but that's just unraveling another unknown. It doesn't affect your or my survival, the remainder of our lives or our eventual deaths.

Speaking of Leibniz, he rejected Newton's determinism. Determinism was never proven to be true. And the modern discovery of measurable randomness helps explain why.

[Doc Dutch]

Speaking of Leibniz, he rejected Newton's determinism. Determinism was never proven to be true. And the modern discovery of measurable randomness helps explain why.

What do you mean by "Newton's determinism"? That Newton's Laws of Motion don't apply?

[BidenPresident]

What do you mean by "Newton's determinism"? That Newton's Laws of Motion don't apply?

No. That laws govern the universe.
Leibniz rejected the idea of absolute time and space.

[Cypress]

Randomness is a fundamental feature of the universe. Not an "x factor."

"For example, an electron hitting an atom may bounce off in one of many directions, and it is normally impossible to predict in advance what the outcome in any given case will be. Quantum indeterminism implies that for a particular quantum state there are many (possibly infinite) alternative futures or potential realities. Quantum mechanics supplies the relative probabilities for each observable outcome, although it won't say which potential future is destined for reality."

http://www.physicsland.com/physics10...l%20davies.pdf

The quantum wave function, like many mathematical concepts in science, is probabilistic.

I have never heard a scientist say that a system of probabilistic mathematics is equivalent to a truly random system.

Quantum mechanics and quantum theory is only generally relevant for the subatomic scale.

At the scale of cosmic bodies, and the scale of visible, real life objects, traditional deterministic laws of mechanics work perfectly fine.

[BidenPresident]

The quantum wave function, like many mathematical concepts in science, is probabilistic.

I have never heard a scientist say that probabilistic mathematics is equivalent to a truly random system.

Quantum mechanics and quantum theory is only generally relevant for the subatomic scale.

At the scale of cosmic bodies, and the scale of visible, real life objects, traditional deterministic laws of mechanics work perfectly fine.

Okay.

[Doc Dutch]

The quantum wave function, like many mathematical concepts in science, is probabilistic.

I have never heard a scientist say that a system of probabilistic mathematics is equivalent to a truly random system.

Quantum mechanics and quantum theory is only generally relevant for the subatomic scale.

At the scale of cosmic bodies, and the scale of visible, real life objects, traditional deterministic laws of mechanics work perfectly fine.

Agreed. It's a theory not a known quantity. Personally, I lean toward the Hidden-variable theory.

The Universe is predictable therefore not random. It exists in accordance with physical laws, both known and some still unknown.

[Cypress]

Agreed. It's a theory not a known quantity. Personally, I lean toward the Hidden-variable theory.

The Universe is predictable therefore not random. It exists in accordance with physical laws, both known and some still unknown.

for sure

If we cannot find patterns, laws, and predictable relationships in the universe, I am not sure what the point of doing science would be.

[Doc Dutch]

for sure

If we cannot find patterns, laws, and predictable relationships in the universe, I am not sure what the point of doing science would be.

Exactly. Science goes by the assumption that the secrets of the Universe can be revealed through study. I agree.

Although I’m not quite sure, it seems BP is seeking to extrapolate “random” appearing behavior of subatomic particles to events in our daily lives.

My wife and I disagree on the modern concept around “the power of prayer”; she believes and I’m more of a Ben Franklin fan: “God helps those who help themselves”.

IMO, God created the Universe with rules and it would be cheating, therefore unGodlike, to violate those rules.

[Cypress]

Exactly. Science goes by the assumption that the secrets of the Universe can be revealed through study. I agree.

Although I’m not quite sure, it seems BP is seeking to extrapolate “random” appearing behavior of subatomic particles to events in our daily lives.

My wife and I disagree on the modern concept around “the power of prayer”; she believes and I’m more of a Ben Franklin fan: “God helps those who help themselves”.

IMO, God created the Universe with rules and it would be cheating, therefore unGodlike, to violate those rules.

I think prayer can have a psychological benefit for some people, and that's fine. Obviously, there is no demonstrable proof of it's efficacy.


I actually think your statement leads to other important philosophical questions:

where do the physical laws and mathematical relationships of the universe come from? Why is there order rather than chaos?

Why did the universe start out in a low entropy state?


There is no crystal clear reason why it had to be that way.

[Doc Dutch]

I think prayer can have a psychological benefit for some people, and that's fine. Obviously, there is no demonstrable proof of it's efficacy....

Absolutely on the psychological effect and disagreed on proving it's efficacy. I'll look it up for data, but any calming of the mind maximizes the person's ability to reason.

This is seen more in Catholicism with citing Hail Mary's as penance; repeating a phrase over and over again is meditation. Saying 10 Hail Marys** is no different psychologically/meditatively than saying 10 Om Mani Padme Hums.

Repeating a phrase is a means to focus the mind in meditation. Counting rosary beads works too. https://www.wikihow.com/Meditate




**Hail, Mary, full of grace,
the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou amongst women
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.