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Thread: Covid Follies #5: Sez who?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Concart View Post
    I find that very strange. You are okay with people ignoring health experts and killing their fellow Americans, and you don't believe that 'we' as a society should do a single thing to stop them, because freedom? We'll agree to disagree on that point; your position seems to be completely counter-productive.
    Whether you think it is counter productive, I believe that forcing folks to take whatever medicine you deem best for them is a far cry from the United States that we all expect. I also believe you comprehend what I am saying and ignore it because you have some anecdotal story that makes you triggered but actually is contrary to how the US works best.

    Convince people.

    The reality is there will be some people that simply do not trust the US Government enough to ever get this vaccination. I feel bad for them, but I believe that they have every right to protest, to choose what goes into their bodies, to reject the supposed benevolence of the fascism (yeah, government working hand in hand with corporations to make decisions on your behalf is fascism) that you tell folks is "taking care of them"...

    <shakes head>

    Often folks who are not vaccinated are in underserved minorities who simply distrust your benevolence. I am continually grateful that I got this vaccine before this political nonsense even became part of it.
    Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but rather we have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
    - -- Aristotle

    Believe nothing on the faith of traditions, even though they have been held in honor for many generations and in diverse places. Do not believe a thing because many people speak of it. Do not believe on the faith of the sages of the past. Do not believe what you yourself have imagined, persuading yourself that a God inspires you. Believe nothing on the sole authority of your masters and priests. After examination, believe what you yourself have tested and found to be reasonable, and conform your conduct thereto.
    - -- The Buddha

    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
    - -- Aristotle

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    Quote Originally Posted by Damocles View Post
    Whether you think it is counter productive, I believe that forcing folks to take whatever medicine you deem best for them is a far cry from the United States that we all expect. I also believe you comprehend what I am saying and ignore it because you have some anecdotal story that makes you triggered but actually is contrary to how the US works best.

    Convince people.

    The reality is there will be some people that simply do not trust the US Government enough to ever get this vaccination. I feel bad for them, but I believe that they have every right to protest, to choose what goes into their bodies, to reject the supposed benevolence of the fascism (yeah, government working hand in hand with corporations to make decisions on your behalf is fascism) that you tell folks is "taking care of them"...

    <shakes head>

    Often folks who are not vaccinated are in underserved minorities who simply distrust your benevolence. I am continually grateful that I got this vaccine before this political nonsense even became part of it.
    Huh? We do that EVERY DAY in the United States, and we have done it from day one. You can't drink and drive. You can't shoot someone. You can't yell fire in a crowded theater. You need to wear a seat belt. You can't text and drive.

    Please, spare the faux drama about this being a freedom issue. It isn't. It's a political issue. Imagine making the argument that you should be allowed to drink and drive because not doing so would infringe on your freedom, and heck, most people make it home, and even if they have an accident, we can always treat them. It's a laughable argument. So is yours. It has nothing to do with an anecdote and everything to do with acting like a civil society instead of a bunch of anarchists who do whatever the hell they want.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Concart View Post
    Huh? We do that EVERY DAY in the United States, and we have done it from day one. You can't drink and drive. You can't shoot someone. You can't yell fire in a crowded theater. You need to wear a seat belt. You can't text and drive.

    Please, spare the faux drama about this being a freedom issue. It isn't. It's a political issue. Imagine making the argument that you should be allowed to drink and drive because not doing so would infringe on your freedom, and heck, most people make it home, and even if they have an accident, we can always treat them. It's a laughable argument. So is yours.
    And I fight every day against it in cases where there is no direct victim. "There ought to be a law!" is the antithesis of my belief system. (Your indirect stuff like, "too many folks in the hospital for me" is not what I am talking about).

    Your examples present with victims. Drunk drivers directly kill folks through their action. If they directly make a victim of anyone through their action then I am in favor of action by society, like if i shoot you, I go to prison because I violated your right to life... If you have to take more than one step to victim (person chooses not to take vaccine, then they get sick (one step), then that illness gets bad enough to go to a hospital (two), then it is bad enough for admittance (three steps), then you get sick too (four), then you go to hospital and that one is too full (five)... not so much.

    Pretending that I am the first libertarian you have ever met and that beliefs like mine are something you have "never heard" is deliberately inane.
    Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but rather we have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
    - -- Aristotle

    Believe nothing on the faith of traditions, even though they have been held in honor for many generations and in diverse places. Do not believe a thing because many people speak of it. Do not believe on the faith of the sages of the past. Do not believe what you yourself have imagined, persuading yourself that a God inspires you. Believe nothing on the sole authority of your masters and priests. After examination, believe what you yourself have tested and found to be reasonable, and conform your conduct thereto.
    - -- The Buddha

    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
    - -- Aristotle

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Dutch View Post
    Agreed. Shooting angry Trumpers should be a national pastime.
    Quote Originally Posted by BidenPresident View Post
    Only conclusion. Going to a Christian school causes you to be a mass murderer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Dutch View Post
    Agreed. Shooting angry Trumpers should be a national pastime.
    Quote Originally Posted by BidenPresident View Post
    Only conclusion. Going to a Christian school causes you to be a mass murderer.

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    And Crazy Confart continues to get owned. Now by the site owner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Damocles View Post
    And I fight every day against it in cases where there is no direct victim. "There ought to be a law!" is the antithesis of my belief system. (Your indirect stuff like, "too many folks in the hospital for me" is not what I am talking about).

    Your examples present with victims. Drunk drivers directly kill folks through their action. If they directly make a victim of anyone through their action then I am in favor of action by society, like if i shoot you, I go to prison because I violated your right to life... If you have to take more than one step to victim (person chooses not to take vaccine, then they get sick (one step), then that illness gets bad enough to go to a hospital (two), then it is bad enough for admittance (three steps), then you get sick too (four), then you go to hospital and that one is too full (five)... not so much.

    Pretending that I am the first libertarian you have ever met and that beliefs like mine are something you have "never heard" is deliberately inane.
    There are 700,000 direct victims who are dead. I was a direct victim. My wife was a direct victim. A victim of manslaughter or negligence is just as dead as if you shot them in the head. Seriously, that argument is completely beneath you. You're smarter than that. Everyone is a libertarian, and no one is. Because it is completely impractical. Unless of course you agree to approve my plan to build a meth lab/factory, dump the chemical waste in the river, use child labor to produce my product, and arm my dealers with AK-47s. No direct victims there, right? LOL at you. Be serious.

    I guess you are also okay with drunk driving. You'll deal with the offender only after he kills someone. Sounds like a great plan.

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    This message is hidden because Life is Golden is on your ignore list.

    Got tired of you chasing me around like a dog in heat troll. Find someone else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Concart View Post
    There are 700,000 direct victims who are dead. I was a direct victim. My wife was a direct victim. A victim of manslaughter or negligence is just as dead as if you shot them in the head. Seriously, that argument is completely beneath you. You're smarter than that. Everyone is a libertarian, and no one is. Because it is completely impractical. Unless of course you agree to approve my plan to build a meth lab/factory, dump the chemical waste in the river, use child labor to produce my product, and arm my dealers with AK-47s. No direct victims there, right? LOL at you. Be serious.
    If you could imprison Covid then I'd agree. However this fails entirely in its understanding of what a victim is. The belief that everyone who has died of a disease is a victim of some person who didn't get a vaccination is absurd.
    Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but rather we have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
    - -- Aristotle

    Believe nothing on the faith of traditions, even though they have been held in honor for many generations and in diverse places. Do not believe a thing because many people speak of it. Do not believe on the faith of the sages of the past. Do not believe what you yourself have imagined, persuading yourself that a God inspires you. Believe nothing on the sole authority of your masters and priests. After examination, believe what you yourself have tested and found to be reasonable, and conform your conduct thereto.
    - -- The Buddha

    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
    - -- Aristotle

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    Quote Originally Posted by Damocles View Post
    If you could imprison Covid then I'd agree. However this fails entirely in its understanding of what a victim is.
    ROTFLMFAO!!!! Let's put the bullets in jail. Come on. You're digging your hole even deeper. Your argument is beyond lame.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Concart View Post
    ROTFLMFAO!!!! Let's put the bullets in jail. Come on. You're digging your hole even deeper. Your argument is beyond lame.
    No, I am not.

    If every single person that has died of a disease is a victim of Taichiliberal because he wouldn't get vaccinated he would have had to, in your scenario, go to each door and spit in every mouth of every person who had died. Pointing a gun at you and pulling a trigger is an action that creates a victim. Not getting a vaccination is the opposite of an action and does not create a direct victim of an action as I noted earlier.
    Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but rather we have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
    - -- Aristotle

    Believe nothing on the faith of traditions, even though they have been held in honor for many generations and in diverse places. Do not believe a thing because many people speak of it. Do not believe on the faith of the sages of the past. Do not believe what you yourself have imagined, persuading yourself that a God inspires you. Believe nothing on the sole authority of your masters and priests. After examination, believe what you yourself have tested and found to be reasonable, and conform your conduct thereto.
    - -- The Buddha

    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
    - -- Aristotle

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    Quote Originally Posted by Damocles View Post
    No, I am not.

    If every single person that has died of a disease is a victim of Taichiliberal because he wouldn't get vaccinated he would have had to, in your scenario, go to each door and spit in every mouth of every person who had died. Pointing a gun at you and pulling a trigger is an action that creates a victim. Not getting a vaccination is the opposite of an action and does not create a direct victim of an action as I noted earlier.
    Nope. You are apparently unfamiliar of the legal principles of 'but for'. In order for me to be guilty of a crime against another person, I do not have to directly harm that person. If my actions caused the harm, whether directly or indirectly, I am guilty. You make the lame claim that the only victims of a crime were persons who were directly injured by the perpetrator. Not a gun, not a knife, but their bare hands. Otherwise it was the bullet that killed them. That is contrary to our laws and our norms. It's just utter nonsense.

    This is a practical question. At what point to we take measures to protect us from those who have decided to utterly obliterate societal norms. You appear to suggest that we do absolutely nothing, because to do so would impose on that persons freedom. That's bullshit, and you know it.

    What is even a lamer argument is the one that you advance to make a distinction between action and inaction. Inaction is OFTEN a cause for a negligence charge. So that one is even more nonsensical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Concart View Post
    Nope. You are apparently unfamiliar of the legal principles of 'but for'. In order for me to be guilty of a crime against another person, I do not have to directly harm that person. If my actions caused the harm, whether directly or indirectly, I am guilty. You make the lame claim that the only victims of a crime were persons who were directly injured by the perpetrator. Not a gun, not a knife, but their bare hands. Otherwise it was the bullet that killed them. That is contrary to our laws and our norms. It's just utter nonsense.

    This is a practical question. At what point to we take measures to protect us from those who have decided to utterly obliterate societal norms. You appear to suggest that we do absolutely nothing, because to do so would impose on that persons freedom. That's bullshit, and you know it.

    What is even a lamer argument is the one that you advance to make a distinction between action and inaction. Inaction is OFTEN a cause for a negligence charge. So that one is even more nonsensical.
    I would agree if it was less than one step away to victim.

    If I don't do this, then victim... That's good for a law. Not if I don't do this, then I catch a disease, then I am somewhere in the vicinity of you, then you also catch the disease.. then even though you are protected you have to go to a hospital, then there are too many folks in the hospital you go to... no. That is not a "but for"... That is just an angry guy shouting at the universe.

    Basically if I don't do this, then this, then this also, then this has to happen, then finally you are at a hospital and there are other folks there... No. That is waaay too many steps to blame the homeless guy who couldn't get one because he didn't have an address for them to verify if he had already gotten one...
    Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but rather we have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
    - -- Aristotle

    Believe nothing on the faith of traditions, even though they have been held in honor for many generations and in diverse places. Do not believe a thing because many people speak of it. Do not believe on the faith of the sages of the past. Do not believe what you yourself have imagined, persuading yourself that a God inspires you. Believe nothing on the sole authority of your masters and priests. After examination, believe what you yourself have tested and found to be reasonable, and conform your conduct thereto.
    - -- The Buddha

    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
    - -- Aristotle

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    Quote Originally Posted by Damocles View Post
    I would agree if it was less than one step away to victim.

    If I don't do this, then victim... That's good for a law. Not if I don't do this, then I catch a disease, then I am somewhere in the vicinity of you, then you also catch the disease.. then even though you are protected you have to go to a hospital, then there are too many folks in the hospital you go to... no. That is not a "but for"... That is just an angry guy shouting at the universe.

    Basically if I don't do this, then this, then this also, then this has to happen, then finally you are at a hospital and there are other folks there... No. That is waaay too many steps to blame the homeless guy who couldn't get one because he didn't have an address for them to verify if he had already gotten one...
    And you think we should make zero attempt to protect ourselves from those irresponsible actions? Seriously? Just let it go? Nope. Not interested. I'm not trying to find a perp. I'm trying to stop them. Based on your argument, you also support:

    Allowing drunk driving. No problem, as long as you make it home ok.
    Indiscriminately shooting off a firearm. As long as no one gets hit, you're cool with it.
    Yelling fire in a crowded theater. You aren't the one that trampled those people to death

    And I also assume you are fine with my plans for the meth lab. As long as no one gets directly hurt, you won't infringe on my freedom.

    Cool, let me know when you're in power. I have the blueprints ready.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Concart View Post
    And you think we should make zero attempt to protect ourselves from those irresponsible actions? Seriously? Just let it go? Nope. Not interested. I'm not trying to find a perp. I'm trying to stop them. Based on your argument, you also support:

    Allowing drunk driving. No problem, as long as you make it home ok.
    Indiscriminately shooting off a firearm. As long as no one gets hit, you're cool with it.
    Yelling fire in a crowded theater. You aren't the one that trampled those people to death

    And I also assume you are fine with my plans for the meth lab. As long as no one gets directly hurt, you won't infringe on my freedom.

    Cool, let me know when you're in power. I have the blueprints ready.
    Again, nope.

    I already covered Drunk Driving in an earlier post, it is simply being disingenuous to pretend it didn't happen. Direct victim. Drunk drives, they hurt people, they are criminal. Like shooting into a crowd. Sometimes you wouldn't hit anyone, but your action makes immediate victims, it is a crime. I would support these laws. Direct line to victim, not 17 steps and the hokey pokey, then you turned yourself around and they are criminals...

    Your argument is nonsense. Even if you say "nope" a bunch.

    I am stunned I have to explain simple libertarian principles to folks on this website still. I sure hope you absorb the information, we will often disagree, I don't want to pretend like you have never heard of a libertarian before that day too.
    Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but rather we have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
    - -- Aristotle

    Believe nothing on the faith of traditions, even though they have been held in honor for many generations and in diverse places. Do not believe a thing because many people speak of it. Do not believe on the faith of the sages of the past. Do not believe what you yourself have imagined, persuading yourself that a God inspires you. Believe nothing on the sole authority of your masters and priests. After examination, believe what you yourself have tested and found to be reasonable, and conform your conduct thereto.
    - -- The Buddha

    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
    - -- Aristotle

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