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Thread: Einstein vs. Bohr

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    Default Einstein vs. Bohr

    Einstein, Bohr and the war over quantum theory

    What Is Real?: The Unfinished Quest for the Meaning of Quantum Physics


    All hell broke loose in physics some 90 years ago. Quantum theory emerged — partly in heated clashes between Albert Einstein and Niels Bohr. It posed a challenge to the very nature of science, and arguably continues to do so, by severely straining the relationship between theory and the nature of reality.

    At the 1927 Solvay Conference in Brussels, 29 brilliant scientists gathered to discuss the fledgling quantum theory. Here, the disagreements between Bohr, Einstein and others, including Erwin Schrödinger and Louis de Broglie, came to a head.

    Whereas Bohr proposed that entities (such as electrons) had only probabilities if they weren’t observed, Einstein argued that they had independent reality, prompting his famous claim that “God does not play dice with the universe”.

    Suddenly, scientific realism — the idea that confirmed scientific theories roughly reflect reality — was at stake.

    For Albert Einstein, reality exists regardless of the existence of the knowing subject, and from the perspective of Niels Bohr, we do not have access to the ultimate reality of the matter, unless conditioning it to the existence of an observer endowed with rationality.

    Continued
    https://www.nature.com/articles/d415...0dice%E2%80%9D.

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    Talking I can’t wait.


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    The electron orbits are a "cloud".

    When you observe them, you know either the momentum or location, not both.
    Dachshund Lives Matter

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    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    The electron orbits are a "cloud".

    When you observe them, you know either the momentum or location, not both.
    For sure. It drove Einstein nuts.
    The overarching question concerns whether the quantum waveform representatives objective reality or is it just the subjective knowledge of an observer?

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    The conventional wisdom from the late 1920s is that Bohr had beaten Einstein, and Bohr's instrumentalist version of the quantum universe prevailed over Einstein's realist approach to quantum mechanics. I even remember Bohr's Copenhagen interpretation being taught as the consensus theory in freshman physics in the 1980s.

    My impression is that time has been kinder to Einstein and the Copenhagen interpretation is on the wane among researchers with expertise in quantum mechanics -- giving rise to realist interpretations of quantum reality, aka the many worlds interpretation.

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    Two models are correct. The Newtonian model and QM.

    As I have stated, the Godel's Incompleteness Theorem states that it cannot be solved in this universe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    Two models are correct. The Newtonian model and QM.

    As I have stated, the Godel's Incompleteness Theorem states that it cannot be solved in this universe.
    Quantum mechanics is not a refutation of Newton. It is a more exact way to measure the movement of particles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BidenPresident View Post
    Quantum mechanics is not a refutation of Newton. It is a more exact way to measure the movement of particles.
    I didn't say it's a refutation. I said both models are correct.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    I didn't say it's a refutation. I said both models are correct.
    Okay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BidenPresident View Post
    Okay.
    Both models are correct and yet they cannot reconcile both together.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    Both models are correct and yet they cannot reconcile both together.
    Explain. I thought you said quantum mechanics does not refute Newton?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BidenPresident View Post
    Explain. I thought you said quantum mechanics does not refute Newton?
    Both models are correct.

    At subatomic level, the Newtonian laws break down. They don't work at that level.

    QM doesn't apply at large scales, unless you want to talk about the probability of someone being able to go through a wall.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    Both models are correct.

    At subatomic level, the Newtonian laws break down. They don't work at that level.
    I don't think that is correct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BidenPresident View Post
    I don't think that is correct.
    You cannot know the momentum and location of a subatomic particle at the same time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    You cannot know the momentum and location of a subatomic particle at the same time.
    How does that violate Newton?

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