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Thread: The Jewish vote

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    I am a realist.

    Rolling the clock back to 1947 is not a realistic solution.

    A viable two state solution, with a sovereign Israel and a sovereign Palestine is the only plausible way forward.
    Agreed; specifically Gaza and the West Bank, although that splits the Palestinians like the partition of India into India, Pakistan and East Pakistan (Bangladesh). Map: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...947_en.svg.png

    It's often recognized that the most dangerous man in the world is one with nothing to lose.

    At the moment, the Palestinians in Gaza don't have much to lose and the West Bankers are not much better off. Best, IMO, is to give them something to lose: a future. Build infrastructure, schools and factories as a path to peace.
    God bless America and those who defend our Constitution.

    "Hatred is a failure of imagination" - Graham Greene, "The Power and the Glory"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Uncle View Post
    Agreed; specifically Gaza and the West Bank, although that splits the Palestinians like the partition of India into India, Pakistan and East Pakistan (Bangladesh). Map: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...947_en.svg.png

    It's often recognized that the most dangerous man in the world is one with nothing to lose.

    At the moment, the Palestinians in Gaza don't have much to lose and the West Bankers are not much better off. Best, IMO, is to give them something to lose: a future. Build infrastructure, schools and factories as a path to peace.
    The Palestinians are really living under apartheid-like conditions, and that for sure creates an explosive situation for extremists on all sides to exploit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    The Palestinians are really living under apartheid-like conditions, and that for sure creates an explosive situation for extremists on all sides to exploit.
    My wife and I were in the West Bank November 2018 visiting Bethlehem. I saw no soldiers except at checkpoints. Our bus wasn't checked coming or going.

    Not sure "apartheid" is equal to military occupation. Are the Afghans living under apartheid conditions? People going through airport security? Which, BTW, was a Royal PITA trying to get out of Israel.

    Yes, I astutely avoided Gaza. Too many nutjobs down there.



    <---best meal I had the entire week.

    God bless America and those who defend our Constitution.

    "Hatred is a failure of imagination" - Graham Greene, "The Power and the Glory"

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatOwlWoman View Post
    Certainly Israelis are more accepting overall of an authoritarian far-right leader like Netanyahu than American Jews would be of the same over here, as evidenced by their voting patterns. Kind of ironic, given that the state of Israel was created because of a certain authoritarian far-right German leader and his actions against Jews.
    That happens when their people are under constant attack. Look at the Patriot Act after 9/11 for an example of giving up freedom to create temporary safety.

    The US only suffered two major Islamic attacks, both in NYC. The Israelis have been pounded for seven decades.
    God bless America and those who defend our Constitution.

    "Hatred is a failure of imagination" - Graham Greene, "The Power and the Glory"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Micawber View Post
    I straddle the fence on this like an Adonis.

    You can't. Fence-squatting is complicity with the aggressor.
    You wouldn't stand back and watch an armed robbery, followed by imprisonment and torture of the victims no matter how hard the victims resisted.
    " First they came for the journalists...
    We don't know what happened after that . "

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Uncle View Post
    That happens when their people are under constant attack. Look at the Patriot Act after 9/11 for an example of giving up freedom to create temporary safety.

    The US only suffered two major Islamic attacks, both in NYC. The Israelis have been pounded for seven decades.
    Hmm.

    Where you live is the ancestral homeland of indigenous Americans who were there first, and who were pushed out. Imagine how you guys would feel if the UN decided that your area should be returned to the Apaches. You could still live there, but because you all are extremely angry and start shooting and bombing and acting up about it, the Apache Nation builds a wall around a small part of Texas and says you all have to stay there, or move to some other state. They let some of you stay on their new land because they need your labor, but you must have certain papers and you are required to check in when you come and go, and can be searched and/or expelled at any time.

    That would go over like a lead balloon, eh?
    "Conservatism is the blind and fear-filled worship of dead radicals." -- Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatOwlWoman View Post
    Certainly Israelis are more accepting overall of an authoritarian far-right leader like Netanyahu than American Jews would be of the same over here, as evidenced by their voting patterns. Kind of ironic, given that the state of Israel was created because of a certain authoritarian far-right German leader and his actions against Jews.
    That's not entirely true- although the Shoah certainly created the conditions for the invasion of Palestine by European Jews.

    Theodor Herzl, an Austro-Hungarian Jew referred to as ' the father of Zionism ' connived with spurious Ottomans in the 1890s to create a Jewish homeland in Palestine- at the expense of the indigenous Palestinians. Later connivance with the British aristocracy and their banker friends led to a ' promise ' in the form of the Balfour Declaration that Zionists should take Palestine as a homeland- and not Kenya as previously offered ( Yes, the arrogant British thought it was perfectly reasonable to give away other people's countries )
    As you say, Hitler became the catalyst to put this ridiculously unjust plan into action.
    " First they came for the journalists...
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    kaffer-kicker;

    OTOH, this shit has been going of ever since 5 Arab nations attacked Israel the day after they declared themselves a nation in 1948.
    You're well off-beam. Long before the Arab League attempted to intervene the European Zionists and their terrorist gangs, Igun, Lehi, Haganah etc. razed close to 400 Palestinian villages , expelled hundreds of thousands of indigenous Arabs, murdered British soldiers and laid claim to huge swathes of territory not granted to the Jews by UN Resolution 181. Unfortunately they had left it too late and the invaders won....and so the groundwork for modern apartheid Izrael was laid. Shortly after their unilateral declaration of sovereignty over somebody else's country the Zionists murdered the UN peace envoy, Count Bernadotte, who himself had been responsible for the rescue of thousands of Jews from Nazi camps.

    Your potted history is a prosemitic fantasy, fueled by your own racism.
    " First they came for the journalists...
    We don't know what happened after that . "

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    Quote Originally Posted by moon View Post
    kaffer-kicker;


    You're well off-beam. Long before the Arab League attempted to intervene the European Zionists and their terrorist gangs, Igun, Lehi, Haganah etc. razed close to 400 Palestinian villages , expelled hundreds of thousands of indigenous Arabs, murdered British soldiers and laid claim to huge swathes of territory not granted to the Jews by UN Resolution 181. Unfortunately they had left it too late and the invaders won....and so the groundwork for modern apartheid Izrael was laid. Shortly after their unilateral declaration of sovereignty over somebody else's country the Zionists murdered the UN peace envoy, Count Bernadotte, who himself had been responsible for the rescue of thousands of Jews from Nazi camps.

    Your potted history is a prosemitic fantasy, fueled by your own racism.
    Maybe this is too simplistic but do you view any American (regardless of their religion or political affiliation) as racist if they support the state of Israel?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatOwlWoman View Post
    Hmm.

    Where you live is the ancestral homeland of indigenous Americans who were there first, and who were pushed out. Imagine how you guys would feel if the UN decided that your area should be returned to the Apaches. You could still live there, but because you all are extremely angry and start shooting and bombing and acting up about it, the Apache Nation builds a wall around a small part of Texas and says you all have to stay there, or move to some other state. They let some of you stay on their new land because they need your labor, but you must have certain papers and you are required to check in when you come and go, and can be searched and/or expelled at any time.

    That would go over like a lead balloon, eh?
    ROFL.. why dont you donate you house and land to indigenous people?
    end that guilt

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    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    Maybe this is too simplistic but do you view any American (regardless of their religion or political affiliation) as racist if they support the state of Israel?
    Let's be quite clear. Izraeli racism is not ' the state of Israel ' any more than racism is the United States. Israel has a legal right to exist as a sovereign state and 25% of its population are Palestinian Arabs.
    Now you must understand that Israel's legal right to exist stems from the self-same document that created Palestine's legal right to exist, United Nations GA Resolution 181. The Arab nations objected to that document - but it passed anyway and so bestowed the right to exist under international law for both Palestine and Israel.

    So the question comes back to you- do you regard any American as racist if they support the state of Palestine ?

    So where is YOUR confirmation that Palestine is a sovereign state and should be supported ?
    " First they came for the journalists...
    We don't know what happened after that . "

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    Quote Originally Posted by dukkha View Post
    ROFL.. why dont you donate you house and land to indigenous people?
    end that guilt
    What guilt? Try to stay on topic for once, eh?

    We live in treaty-ceded territory, the ancestral homeland of the Anishinaabeg (Ojibwe) people. That gives them the right to hunt and fish and gather and otherwise utilize the forest lands and lakes, but we still retain our private property. Suppose the UN decided to give this whole U.P. part of Michigan back to them. We would most likely behave just like the Palestinians who had *their* property taken and given to what we see as usurpers, even though technically their ppl were here first.
    "Conservatism is the blind and fear-filled worship of dead radicals." -- Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatOwlWoman View Post
    Hmm.

    Where you live is the ancestral homeland of indigenous Americans who were there first, and who were pushed out. Imagine how you guys would feel if the UN decided that your area should be returned to the Apaches. You could still live there, but because you all are extremely angry and start shooting and bombing and acting up about it, the Apache Nation builds a wall around a small part of Texas and says you all have to stay there, or move to some other state. They let some of you stay on their new land because they need your labor, but you must have certain papers and you are required to check in when you come and go, and can be searched and/or expelled at any time.

    That would go over like a lead balloon, eh?
    There would be war. So what? Let the Israelis nuke them and we can have peace.

    The United States is not the world's policeman. The problem is stabilizing a region that is on the top 5 list of "Most likely to experience a nuclear attack". If that happened, it would be very, very bad for business and the American economy. It would collapse. More and more nations are seeing this problem themselves as they become prosperous. The situation, IMO, is to help (cash in) on those places in a fair manner which is equitable to all. When everyone has a piece of the pie, they become happier.
    God bless America and those who defend our Constitution.

    "Hatred is a failure of imagination" - Graham Greene, "The Power and the Glory"

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    This is how Izraeli fascists treat the Palestinians when they want to move from one city to another in their own land. This is shameful for humanity and supports segregation, inequality, racism and occupation. There is no reason to treat the Palestinian civilians in such an inhuman way. The Gestapo couldn't have done better.
    Photo from Al Qouba checkpoint near Bethlehem.
    Anybody who supports Izraeli fascism is sick of mind. There are no ' sides ' to brutality. The Nazis at Nuremberg had no defense, the butchers of My Lai had no defense, the apartheid Dutch of South Africa had no defense, the American military jailers at Abu Ghraib had no defense- and neither do you.
    " First they came for the journalists...
    We don't know what happened after that . "

    Maria Ressa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    I am a realist.

    Rolling the clock back to 1947 is not a realistic solution.

    A viable two state solution, with a sovereign Israel and a sovereign Palestine is the only plausible way forward.
    With the most powerful country on earth deciding the zionists can do no wrong and keeping anyone else out? Bit like pretending the South African bantustans were the nucleus of a 'black' state, I think. It is like Hitler: what answer can there be but total opposition by all decent people until things reach their crisis?

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