anonymoose (06-15-2021), cawacko (06-14-2021)
That is only the general public's concept of a theory. If it is going to be taught in schools we should use the scientific meaning of the term. In the scientific method, theories are facts. Maybe the theory does not explain everything adequately because not all the parts are there or it is not put together in the correct order, but theories do not contain unproven hypotheses.
It doesn't matter if a person is optimistic or pessimistic about reducing racism, when they are told only whites can be racist or only males can be sexist you are getting into definitions and assumptions which many do not accept and cannot be proven.
Your definition of a theory was that it is unproven; yet, you want to teach these unproven ideas in schools. That means you have not proven white privilege exists, but you want whites to admit they have it. CRT says race is only a social construct, but it also states people are biased based on (nonexistent) race.
I don't think those who want CRT taught in schools (or workplaces) want to examine its tenets, they want whites to accept all of its assumptions. They are not allowed to challenge white privilege. And, even if we admit it exists, how does that reduce racism?
If government can do anything we want it to, it would have eliminated crime, poverty, unemployment, school failures....
anonymoose (06-15-2021), cawacko (06-14-2021)
I enjoyed reading that Flash.
Maybe you have some thoughts on this. We often hear acknowledging a problem is the first step in addressing it. So if white privilege is a problem then acknowledging it is step one. And I can recall after George Floyd's death a number of friends on Facebook posting they acknowledge their white privilege (along with a number of #BLM posts). For the most part that has all disappeared. So what are the next steps? One could say CRT is a good start where white kids in school are taught about their privilege, they are racist and oppressors etc. But what really changes for grown ups? I don't really see too many white people stepping aside from their jobs so minorities can advance. I don't really see white people have their kids stop applying to top schools so more minorities can attend instead. What would next steps entail?
Flash (06-14-2021)
I don't think CRT as defined in the JPP posts is useful for anything unless we are teaching scientific method and want to use it to show bad science. First, if race is not real but only a social construct, then we need to quit using the term race, systemic racism, institutional racism or any other nonexistent concept.
While we cannot scientifically operationalize concepts like systemic racism, it remains a subjective evaluation about whether it even exists. We can study and observe concepts like prejudice and discrimination. Those exist among all peoples and are just as evil if they are practiced among only white people or only black people.
But, when we use politically questionable definitions of terms like racism which say only whites can be prejudiced (and only males can be sexist) people begin rejecting those claims which destroys any further discourse. We can discuss and demonstrate examples of prejudice or discrimination without using scientifically questionable and emotionally objectionable terms like "white privilege" and trying to force people to admit they "have it." Having black hair products on the same aisle as white products is hardly a privilege.
People can discover their own prejudices with many experimental methods psychology already uses which also makes it fun and promotes discussion. I think this approach is much more productive than attacking people and calling them oppressors, bigots, and racists. The exercises are more harmful than productive.
It is like telling obese people they are fat and need to quit eating so much. It probably has the opposite than the desired result.
However, I think some of our JPP friends would rather express their white guilt by forcing angry diatribes on those they see as white racists. It might also show them their attitudes toward those from the South, working class whites, or Trump voters is bigotry equal to those things they are so hostile about.
Hello Flash,
Well, we've got to try to solve racial inequality, and I'm for anything that works.
Blacks don't earn as much as whites. They are repressed. And we have government assistance programs that break up families and encourage single parenting. We literally force mothers and fathers to live apart because the rules say if they live together they don't qualify for as much assistance. Many blacks are raised in food deserts and don't have enough income to eat well, or in many cases eat at all. Maslow was right. If kids are not secure, well fed, loved, feel safe, it is nearly impossible for them to do as well as the kids who are.
Our country was founded in slavery. We fought a war over it and we currently live with the effects all these years later. That's because even though blacks were freed, they have been discriminated against by whites in as many ways as one can imagine.
The most common way for middle class Americans to increase their wealth is through home ownership. Blacks have been routinely shut out of that for a long time, so the repression has become cross-generational.
Now we realize this problem has not simply gone away by itself and it is not going to unless we identify and take measures designed to remove barriers to black success.
We have identified that there is white privilege, and we are beginning to realize that government is the only institution large enough to effectively take this on. It comes as no surprise that well-off conservative whites are resistant to spending any government money to attack this goal. They wonder what's in it for them and they see nothing. The reality is that by helping blacks become more successful, especially where we can break the cycle of cross-generational black poverty, it will make our nation more productive and increase opportunity for all.
People need to get over the hang-ups of blaming, stop taking things so personally, and look at the big picture.
If we can solve this, we will make America greater. We will do something that no nation has been able to do, and that would be amazing. We know it is going to be difficult and we will probably not succeed on the first try. But we must try. We must learn what does not work, and why before we can figure out what will work.
One thing we know for certain is doing nothing will not work. This will not just go away on it's own.
Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.
It's interesting you reference gov't programs that break up families and encourage single family parenting then say well off white conservatives don't want the gov't to spend more money on gov't assistance programs such as ones that break up families and encourage single family parenting.
So what do you suggest? You seem to believe that some people are completely handicapped, or behind the curve, or unable to be successful, because of the color of their skin. Isn't everyone a human being, with choices? The world is out there to be ours....if we work hard....
Parents teach children how to view the word...their peers, their opportunities, their actions, their future....Personal responsibility....no one has to be a victim because of their circumstances, some struggles they may be experiencing.....It's about choice....
Sailor (06-14-2021)
Hello cawacko,
That's not why they don't want to spend. They are selfish cheap skates. That's why. They couldn't care less about what happens to black families or trying to solve racial inequality.
These are many of the same people who want to make abortions illegal, want to force the poor to have children they don't want, but then as soon as those children are born, then that's when they want nothing further to do with the child's well being. Certainly not paying anything to help those in need who have been shut out of the ability to provide for their children because of the color of their skin.
Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.
Now you just want to get into partisan b*tching (and not sure what abortion has to do with any of this) which accomplishes and changes nothing. Short of the gov't confiscating money from non-black people and giving it all to black people, which is not likely to happen, there's no legislation that's going to be a panacea and create some big sea change in outcomes. We've tried it for over 50 years now and have seen the results.
There are lots of factors involved including culture and gov't can't legislate that.
Sailor (06-15-2021)
Hello cawacko,
Failure to achieve success is no excuse for quitting. We are going to right the wrongs and spread prosperity because that's the true blue American way.
Any who oppose doing the right thing are free to bring shame upon themselves all they like. It won't stop the determined compassionate.
I never once met a rich man who was taxed into poverty. The biggest taxes are levied upon those who feel it the least.
Nobody falls through the cracks in a great country. No souls left behind.
We are going to help the under-advantaged learn how to share in prosperity. It's the right thing to do.
And we will make America greater by doing so.
Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.
Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.
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