Sigmund Freud vs. Carl Jung

[Phantasmal]

I agree to a small extent. There is religion/gods, and then there is spirituality which I define as a non-observable/non-measurable sense of connection of self to all that there is. I don't claim to know if there is a god or gods, nor do I know if there is some sort of existence after our meat-space forms die. I suspect that our innate belief in gods has to do with our subconscious memories of being an infant. Our parents ARE like gods when we are tiny and helpless. Then we grow up and realize that they're just people after all, and the subconscious disappointment sends us in search of a replacement.

This is all very Jungian and Freudian, eh?

There is also the need to feel that we are not mortal, that when we die isn’t the end and there is a reward for being good humans.

[evince]

Humans no doubt first worshiped nature


The “gods” who made the stream run and the berries grow


Mans mind was wired by needing food and water along with shelter needed to feel respect for nature to survive



Then it evolved


Man moved away from nature

Developed systems to grow food at need


Developed systems to deliver water at need


Man then began to worship themselves


So god became a human form


If religion keeps changing


Than how is it’s views the actual and all time truth?


Because it never was

[goat]

Now we're teetering on the edge of the very similar discussion that starts with "Guns don't kill people, people kill people."

The fact is that without guns far less ppl would be being killed. Without religion the same is true. We can also point out the downsides of not having guns or not having religion.

I can't get away from Moses and Monotheism and Freud's claim that Moses was killed by the jews for preaching a kinder, gentler god than Yahweh, the exact same thing gnostics were teaching at that time. Knowledgeable jews were tired of 100s of years of war. The less militant the god, the better chance we have at avoiding war. Freud took more risks than Jung and that's why Freud is still relevant as a philosopher.

[Cypress]

Humans no doubt first worshiped nature


The “gods” who made the stream run and the berries grow


Mans mind was wired by needing food and water along with shelter needed to feel respect for nature to survive



Then it evolved


Man moved away from nature

Developed systems to grow food at need


Developed systems to deliver water at need


Man then began to worship themselves


So god became a human form


If religion keeps changing


Than how is it’s views the actual and all time truth?


Because it never was

All human institutions change.

The physics of 1900 had to radically change to accommodate new theories of quantum physics and relativity.

In the year 2100, our physics might look marginally laughable.

Sacred texts like the New Testament, the Baghavad Gita, and Daodejing are allegory and metaphor written in the language and context of the late Bronze Age. It was not until the Protestant Reformation that Protestants started insisting on biblical literalism and biblical inerrancy. And to this day, Protestants are just a minority of world Christianity.

I think the atheism of Frederich Neitzche has a lot to offer, and I do not begrudge anyone that intellectual path to a meaningful life.

Biblical literalism is obviously laughable. But at least to me, there is a lot of truth and spiritual power in the ancient sacred texts of Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Daoism, even if we have to understand them from the prism of the 21st century.

[BidenPresident]

Religion is for the weak of mind. We should pity the religious.

[ThatOwlWoman]

They also converted by the sword.

Yep.

One of the Ojibwe words for "priest" translates to "black robe kidnapper."

[evince]

More often elected by money


The feet thing is not for people considering themselves sheep in a flock

[ThatOwlWoman]

Beliefs are personal

Trying to organize them with large numbers of people and UNELECTED leaders (churches) is asking for them to be taken over by evil humans

Exactly how I see it. Yet we are social beings and most of us require confirmation of our beliefs by having them shared with others. Whether it's "blue is the most beautiful color," "The Packers are the greatest football team," or "Hip hop rules," we all seek confirmation.

And that makes us vulnerable to those who would take advantage.

[ThatOwlWoman]

Humans no doubt first worshiped nature


The “gods” who made the stream run and the berries grow


Mans mind was wired by needing food and water along with shelter needed to feel respect for nature to survive



Then it evolved


Man moved away from nature

Developed systems to grow food at need


Developed systems to deliver water at need


Man then began to worship themselves


So god became a human form


If religion keeps changing


Than how is it’s views the actual and all time truth?


Because it never was

Great observation. The rise of organized religion seems to coincide around the world with the creation of agriculture and animal husbandry.

[ThatOwlWoman]

I can't get away from Moses and Monotheism and Freud's claim that Moses was killed by the jews for preaching a kinder, gentler god than Yahweh, the exact same thing gnostics were teaching at that time. Knowledgeable jews were tired of 100s of years of war. The less militant the god, the better chance we have at avoiding war. Freud took more risks than Jung and that's why Freud is still relevant as a philosopher.

Where do you fit in the gentle, peaceful Christ who told us to "Love your neighbors" and who preached and practiced tolerance?

[evince]

More free time to manipulate others



History can teach humans alot

[ThatOwlWoman]

Religion is for the weak of mind. We should pity the religious.

Why?

I don't pity them as much as fear the militant ones who want to force their ways and their beliefs on us all, at gunpoint if necessary.

[evince]

Religion is for the weak of mind. We should pity the religious.

That is not going to help you understand your fellow man


It’s a dead end of thought



Jesus was a great man who loved mankind and sought goodness in the world


As were most leaders of world religions


Once they are gone and the structure is already there



The evil often stand in their place

[goat]

Religion believes in the carrot and the stick. Spirituality believes in man's basic decency and in its connection to others. Religion does not teach, it dictates. Spirituality teaches us, instructs us and advances us. Totalitarian governments want to stamp out the spirit. They also want to replace the dogma with THEIR dogma. So it's perfectly logical that authoritarianism is the enemy of both. There is some truth to the idea that we viewed parents as 'Gods', because as infants we need to be told what to do. An infant doesn't know that playing in the street is dangerous. I'd still argue that Gods are a product of superstition and fear, and nothing else.

Freud is credited for the belief that parents continue to haunt their children far into adulthood. Today they call it emotional development and is something most of us have to work out as adults. I don't blame my parents for me being damaged but they Shirley got me started in that direction.

[Cypress]

Beliefs are personal


Trying to organize them with large numbers of people and UNELECTED leaders (churches) is asking for them to be taken over by evil humans

I agree with that, but I also think ritual and tradition are are very important for a large number of humans.

Hinduism, the Catholic Church, Judaism, Islam could not really exist without some kind of institutional social contract among it's adherents.

I really do think we tend to underestimate how important ritual is as a sociological practice.