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Thread: Sigmund Freud vs. Carl Jung

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatOwlWoman View Post
    "What is truth?" -- Pontius Pilate
    A great philosophical question! Socrates himself would have forced us to confront this question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    "Of course, one cannot declare that only my faith is correct and all other faiths are not. Of course God is endlessly multi-dimensional so every religion that exists on earth represents some face, some side of God." --- Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
    When my late husband was in the ICU on life support, one of the medical staff asked if we wanted to speak with someone in pastoral care. Being pretty shell-shocked at the time I said okay. They sent the hospital priest (it was a Catholic hospital). There is something wonderful about hospital priests; they are far more open-minded than their brethren in churches. I told him that we weren't Catholic or Christian; in fact we were pagan. He just smiled and said "We Christians like to believe that we have the only path to Heaven. There are many paths." When I told him that my late husband always told me that he'd save me a seat on the bus to Hell, he laughed and said he wished he could have met him.
    "Conservatism is the blind and fear-filled worship of dead radicals." -- Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatOwlWoman View Post
    Religion, like a lot of other things, has a good side and a bad side. Yes, it has caused war and genocide and brutality and oppression. It has also caused humans to create some of their most beautiful works -- architecture, music, compassion, empathy, and aid to our fellow travelers. Its evil comes when it is used by amoral power-hungry leaders to twist the faithful to their will. We can see that today in this country, as the evangelicals switched their god figure from The God to an insane orange clown who promised to give them what they most want -- dominion over America.
    Point of order: Religions are tools. The Bible never did anything except sit on a table. It's People who do all the nasty shit in the world.

    It was human leaders who ordered the Crusades, it was human leaders who came up with "Manifest Destiny", it's humans who burned books and murdered millions of their fellow human beings, not "religion".
    God bless America and those who defend our Constitution.

    "Hatred is a failure of imagination" - Graham Greene, "The Power and the Glory"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Uncle View Post
    Religion is a social construct. Look at what Jesus said and what Christian religions are practicing. You're a good example of a Christian seeking to follow the path of Christ whereas PmP is a lip-service Christian who uses religion as a tool for personal gratification.

    Martial arts, regardless of form, are to teach self-defense. They're also good for building confidence and physical conditioning. As such, martial arts, it doesn't matter much which form one chooses, is a means to an end with a goal of self-defense.

    Same goes with religion. The purpose is spiritual enlightenment. Sadly, like some use martial arts, adherents defend their form over the end goal be it self-defense or spiritual enlightenment.
    That's a great analogy. Just like some want to use their martial arts skills to bully and threaten, some use their religious faith as a club to do the same.
    "Conservatism is the blind and fear-filled worship of dead radicals." -- Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantasmal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ThatOwlWoman View Post
    That's it. The connection. Yet western religions promote the concept of man apart from creation, not part of it. It even says in the OT that god gave mankind dominion over all. That indicates a separation, not a connection. Ancient ppl from the New World indigenous ppl to pre-Roman European pagans to African tribes in general put humans into nature and part and parcel of it.
    Exactly, it’s why I’m more attracted to Eastern, pagan, Native American spirituality than Judeao/Christianity.
    Going a layer deeper, the differences are a reflection of Western philosophy versus Eastern philosophy. It's not that Christianity took over the West, but that people in the West graviated more strongly to Christianity than belief in Roman/Greek Gods.
    God bless America and those who defend our Constitution.

    "Hatred is a failure of imagination" - Graham Greene, "The Power and the Glory"

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatOwlWoman View Post
    That's a great analogy. Just like some want to use their martial arts skills to bully and threaten, some use their religious faith as a club to do the same.
    Thanks and agreed.

    My philosophy is to hold people accountable, not things. Religion is a thing....so are guns and baseball bats.
    God bless America and those who defend our Constitution.

    "Hatred is a failure of imagination" - Graham Greene, "The Power and the Glory"

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatOwlWoman View Post
    When my late husband was in the ICU on life support, one of the medical staff asked if we wanted to speak with someone in pastoral care. Being pretty shell-shocked at the time I said okay. They sent the hospital priest (it was a Catholic hospital). There is something wonderful about hospital priests; they are far more open-minded than their brethren in churches. I told him that we weren't Catholic or Christian; in fact we were pagan. He just smiled and said "We Christians like to believe that we have the only path to Heaven. There are many paths." When I told him that my late husband always told me that he'd save me a seat on the bus to Hell, he laughed and said he wished he could have met him.
    awesome

    Thanks for sharing that story.


    I do not associate with fire-and-brimstone pastors, and the priests and bishops I know have never been openly judgmental about someone's spritual views or lack thereof.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Uncle View Post
    Point of order: Religions are tools. The Bible never did anything except sit on a table. It's People who do all the nasty shit in the world.

    It was human leaders who ordered the Crusades, it was human leaders who came up with "Manifest Destiny", it's humans who burned books and murdered millions of their fellow human beings, not "religion".
    Now we're teetering on the edge of the very similar discussion that starts with "Guns don't kill people, people kill people."

    The fact is that without guns far less ppl would be being killed. Without religion the same is true. We can also point out the downsides of not having guns or not having religion.
    "Conservatism is the blind and fear-filled worship of dead radicals." -- Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    awesome

    Thanks for sharing that story.


    I do not associate with fire-and-brimstone pastors, and the priests and bishops I know have never been openly judgmental about someone's spritual views or lack thereof.
    It is always good to find someone who truly does exemplify Christ's teachings. They are more rare than you might imagine, given the number of Xtians on the planet.
    "Conservatism is the blind and fear-filled worship of dead radicals." -- Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatOwlWoman View Post
    "What is truth?" -- Pontius Pilate
    The entire chapter is an interesting conversation in context. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...18&version=NIV

    The abridged version:
    31 Pilate said, “Take him yourselves and judge him by your own law.”

    “But we have no right to execute anyone,” they objected. 32 This took place to fulfill what Jesus had said about the kind of death he was going to die.

    33 Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, “Are you the king of the Jews?”

    34 “Is that your own idea,” Jesus asked, “or did others talk to you about me?”

    35 “Am I a Jew?” Pilate replied. “Your own people and chief priests handed you over to me. What is it you have done?”

    36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

    37 “You are a king, then!” said Pilate.

    Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”

    38 “What is truth?” retorted Pilate. With this he went out again to the Jews gathered there and said, “I find no basis for a charge against him.
    God bless America and those who defend our Constitution.

    "Hatred is a failure of imagination" - Graham Greene, "The Power and the Glory"

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatOwlWoman View Post
    It is always good to find someone who truly does exemplify Christ's teachings. They are more rare than you might imagine, given the number of Xtians on the planet.
    In my opinion, it is probably difficult and takes enormous commitment to be a good, pious, devout Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, or Sikh.

    Whatever we think about Jesus, Siddhartha Guatama, or Muhammad, the expectations they laid out for consistently living an authentic, meaningful, and ethical life takes remarkable commitment, when you think about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatOwlWoman View Post
    Now we're teetering on the edge of the very similar discussion that starts with "Guns don't kill people, people kill people."

    The fact is that without guns far less ppl would be being killed. Without religion the same is true. We can also point out the downsides of not having guns or not having religion.
    Are you saying religion, books, guns and other inanimate objects kill people without human involvement?

    Putting guns aside for the moment, if religions didn't exist, people would invent them. Why?

    Regardless of Voltaire's thoughts on the subject, human beings do have a spiritual side in addition to their physical and psychological components.

    The major problem, of course, is that the physical components are easily quantified, the psychological less so and the spiritual nearly impossible to do so.

    Nonetheless, try as they might for five decades, the Totalitarian Socialists of the USSR and PRC** were unable to stamp out religion. Again, why? IMO, it's because spirituality is an essential component human beings. The only way to eliminate spirituality is to eliminate the human beings. That's been tried too.


    **The PRC is still trying to do so, notably with the Falun Gong.
    God bless America and those who defend our Constitution.

    "Hatred is a failure of imagination" - Graham Greene, "The Power and the Glory"

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    Gods are man-made constructs to explain to the superstitious those things that science does not yet understand, and to create an afterlife to address their fear of mortality. Religion is a logical result of belief in Gods and the need to placate the powerful by worshipping them. Both have done far more harm than good. The fact is that Gods have been the explanation for many phenomenon that science now easily explains. Thunder is not Thor's hammer. An eclipse is not a dragon swallowing the sun. Every time religion says that God is right there under that rock, we turn the rock over and find science. EVERY SINGLE TIME. No exceptions.

    A world without religion would be a far better world. As science expands our knowledge, we have less and less need for religion and Gods. Can I get an amen?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    In my opinion, it is probably difficult and takes enormous commitment to be a good, pious, devout Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, or Sikh.

    Whatever we think about Jesus, Siddhartha Guatama, or Muhammad, the expectations they laid out for consistently living an authentic, meaningful, and ethical life takes remarkable commitment, when you think about it.
    Agreed. The problem in the United States is that unregulated capitalism ramps up consumerism and fosters greed. "Greed is Good"..which in the US often means "Greed is God". Obviously this is completely contrary to what Jesus preached and why many Christians consider "Prosperity Christianity" to be blasphemy.
    God bless America and those who defend our Constitution.

    "Hatred is a failure of imagination" - Graham Greene, "The Power and the Glory"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Uncle View Post
    Going a layer deeper, the differences are a reflection of Western philosophy versus Eastern philosophy. It's not that Christianity took over the West, but that people in the West graviated more strongly to Christianity than belief in Roman/Greek Gods.
    The early Xtian leaders were skilled at adopting local religious festivals and practices into their own worship, in order to attract more believers. It worked very well. We can still see the echoes of pagan ritual and liturgy and holidays in Christian practice today.
    "Conservatism is the blind and fear-filled worship of dead radicals." -- Mark Twain

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