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Thread: Sigmund Freud vs. Carl Jung

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    Default Sigmund Freud vs. Carl Jung

    Their respective theories of religion...

    Sigmund Freud's theory of religion was based on a model of psychiatric pathology: religion as neurosis. He attacked religion on several fronts. He noted that religious rituals mirrored the ritual behavior of disturbed patients. Like a neurosis, religion thus represented a sort of safety valve that was perhaps useful for relieving pressure but not as good as getting to and resolving the real problems of life Religion, by displacing real human needs and fears
    onto unreal, symbolic entities, was a form of alienation that prevented people from coming to grips with their real problems and frustrations. People were better off without it, just as his patients were better off without their neuroses.

    Carl Gustav Jung began his career in psychiatry as one of Freud’s most promising disciples. As Jung began to reflect more independently on human psychology and its pathologies, however, he found himself increasingly convinced that religion, far from being the chronic impediment that Freud believed it to be, was also potentially a source of health, balance, and connection for people; in fact, it was a necessary component of mental health. Religion, he said, was the sense that we were connected to a reality larger than our individual selves. We might call this larger reality by many names, but it represented a kind of synchronicity, a larger web of significations, a collective unconscious that was inbuilt into the human psyche. Its contents included archetypes, universal symbolic representations that helped people to organize and give meaning to their existence. In tandem with rational, discursive thought, symbols and archetypes enabled people to approach the world in a balanced, meaningful way.



    Source credit:Professor Charles B. Jones

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    What do you believe? Religion is used to start wars of genocide, and discriminate against women and nonwhites. Religion is destroying this country with its need for power and control.

    Freud tried to preserve his legacy by walking back his attacks on religion in his deathbed book Moses and Monotheism. Freudians saw this as a betrayal on his principles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by goat View Post
    What do you believe?
    There seem to be elements of truth and insight in both Freud's and Jung's theories of religion. To me, the important thing is they are asking the right questions. They are looking at religion from the perspectives of sociology and psychology
    .
    Religion is used to start wars of genocide, and discriminate against women and nonwhites. Religion is destroying this country with its need for power and control.
    Bad things happen when extremists take power. The crimes of religious authority are frequently discussed. Less frequently discussed are the crimes against humanity committed when state sponsored militant atheism is given the levers of government - from the French Revolution, to Soviet Russia and beyond.

    That is undoutedly why the enlightened mind prefers a pluralistic, agnostic form of state secularism.

    Freud tried to preserve his legacy by walking back his attacks on religion in his deathbed book Moses and Monotheism. Freudians saw this as a betrayal on his principles.
    I will not begrudge him that. Plenty of people have taken religious principles to heart when faced with the termination of life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    There seem to be elements of truth and insight in both Freud's and Jung's theories of religion. To me, the important thing is they are asking the right questions. They are looking at religion from the perspectives of sociology and psychology
    .

    Bad things happen when extremists take power. The crimes of religious authority are frequently discussed. Less frequently discussed are the crimes against humanity committed when state sponsored militant atheism is given the levers of government - from the French Revolution, to Soviet Russia and beyond.

    That is undoutedly why the enlightened mind prefers a pluralistic, agnostic form of state secularism.



    I will not begrudge him that. Plenty of people have taken religious principles to heart when faced with the termination of life.
    I was fascinated by Jung’s archetypes. Joseph Campbell discussed them in his series with Bill Moyer. Great stuff. I would say there is no need for religion when you can feel a connection with the universe and the awe of natural occurrences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantasmal View Post
    I was fascinated by Jung’s archetypes. Joseph Campbell discussed them in his series with Bill Moyer. Great stuff. I would say there is no need for religion when you can feel a connection with the universe and the awe of natural occurrences.
    The world needs more Bill Moyers
    Thanks for your insight!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    There seem to be elements of truth and insight in both Freud's and Jung's theories of religion. To me, the important thing is they are asking the right questions. They are looking at religion from the perspectives of sociology and psychology
    .

    Bad things happen when extremists take power. The crimes of religious authority are frequently discussed. Less frequently discussed are the crimes against humanity committed when state sponsored militant atheism is given the levers of government - from the French Revolution, to Soviet Russia and beyond.

    That is undoutedly why the enlightened mind prefers a pluralistic, agnostic form of state secularism.



    I will not begrudge him that. Plenty of people have taken religious principles to heart when faced with the termination of life.
    Neocons are able to bomb Muslim countries into submission because of white suburban christian complicity. The electoral college handed Trump the presidency because white christian fear of the demographics. White christian moderates are more than willing to aid and abet extremists for an imagined security. White christians deny accountability for the police state they continue to support and defend.

    Freud has a rare win over Jung on this topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by goat View Post
    Neocons are able to bomb Muslim countries into submission because of white suburban christian complicity. The electoral college handed Trump the presidency because white christian fear of the demographics. White christian moderates are more than willing to aid and abet extremists for an imagined security. White christians deny accountability for the police state they continue to support and defend.

    Freud has a rare win over Jung on this topic.
    It seems to me a very dubious use of the term to call these persons 'Christians'. I haven't been able to take these particular psychologists seriously since I was fourteen and had a peculiarly complicated dream, as part of which a Freudian, Jungian and Adlerian therapist argued about its interpretation. I woke up laughing and decided I had better devote my spare time to theology and Marx. I expect it was somehow MEANT. Sorry about that!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iolo/Penderyn View Post
    It seems to me a very dubious use of the term to call these persons 'Christians'. I haven't been able to take these particular psychologists seriously since I was fourteen and had a peculiarly complicated dream, as part of which a Freudian, Jungian and Adlerian therapist argued about its interpretation. I woke up laughing and decided I had better devote my spare time to theology and Marx. I expect it was somehow MEANT. Sorry about that!
    Thanks for the correction. American "christian" suburbia is the easiest group for the puppetmasters to manipulate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by goat View Post
    Neocons are able to bomb Muslim countries into submission because of white suburban christian complicity. The electoral college handed Trump the presidency because white christian fear of the demographics. White christian moderates are more than willing to aid and abet extremists for an imagined security. White christians deny accountability for the police state they continue to support and defend.

    Freud has a rare win over Jung on this topic.
    Neocons do not strike me as particularly Christian. In fact, many of the leading Neocons were Jewish.

    USA bombs people for geopolitical reasons which have nothing to do with Jesus. In the Balkans, we bombed Christians to protect Muslims.

    Trump won the EC becasuse of racial resentment. White conservatives might use the bible as figleaf to justify their racism, but it does not make their true motivations Christian. I am pretty sure Jesus of Nazareth never said anything which could be construed as white supremacy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by goat View Post
    What do you believe? Religion is used to start wars of genocide, and discriminate against women and nonwhites. Religion is destroying this country with its need for power and control.

    Freud tried to preserve his legacy by walking back his attacks on religion in his deathbed book Moses and Monotheism. Freudians saw this as a betrayal on his principles.
    Religion, like a lot of other things, has a good side and a bad side. Yes, it has caused war and genocide and brutality and oppression. It has also caused humans to create some of their most beautiful works -- architecture, music, compassion, empathy, and aid to our fellow travelers. Its evil comes when it is used by amoral power-hungry leaders to twist the faithful to their will. We can see that today in this country, as the evangelicals switched their god figure from The God to an insane orange clown who promised to give them what they most want -- dominion over America.
    “Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.” -- Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantasmal View Post
    I was fascinated by Jung’s archetypes. Joseph Campbell discussed them in his series with Bill Moyer. Great stuff. I would say there is no need for religion when you can feel a connection with the universe and the awe of natural occurrences.
    That's it. The connection. Yet western religions promote the concept of man apart from creation, not part of it. It even says in the OT that god gave mankind dominion over all. That indicates a separation, not a connection. Ancient ppl from the New World indigenous ppl to pre-Roman European pagans to African tribes in general put humans into nature and part and parcel of it.
    “Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.” -- Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by goat View Post
    Neocons are able to bomb Muslim countries into submission because of white suburban christian complicity. The electoral college handed Trump the presidency because white christian fear of the demographics. White christian moderates are more than willing to aid and abet extremists for an imagined security. White christians deny accountability for the police state they continue to support and defend.

    Freud has a rare win over Jung on this topic.
    I agree with much of this. A Trump (or a Hitler) is the result of fear. The QOP since Reagan has skillfully played on the fear of white Xtian Americans that they are rapidly becoming a minority in this country, and schmoozed them into abandoning the principles of their religion in order to keep their control of power.
    “Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.” -- Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatOwlWoman View Post
    Religion, like a lot of other things, has a good side and a bad side. Yes, it has caused war and genocide and brutality and oppression. It has also caused humans to create some of their most beautiful works -- architecture, music, compassion, empathy, and aid to our fellow travelers. Its evil comes when it is used by amoral power-hungry leaders to twist the faithful to their will. We can see that today in this country, as the evangelicals switched their god figure from The God to an insane orange clown who promised to give them what they most want -- dominion over America.
    Well said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatOwlWoman View Post
    Religion, like a lot of other things, has a good side and a bad side. Yes, it has caused war and genocide and brutality and oppression. It has also caused humans to create some of their most beautiful works -- architecture, music, compassion, empathy, and aid to our fellow travelers. Its evil comes when it is used by amoral power-hungry leaders to twist the faithful to their will. We can see that today in this country, as the evangelicals switched their god figure from The God to an insane orange clown who promised to give them what they most want -- dominion over America.
    Christianity became the dominate religion through violence. My argument has always been that white suburban christian complicity is directly responsible for the situation we find ourselves in today. The marginalized are powerless but no longer depend on white suburban approval. Very few suburbanites realize the change young people are attempting to bring to America and the world as a whole.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatOwlWoman View Post
    That's it. The connection. Yet western religions promote the concept of man apart from creation, not part of it. It even says in the OT that god gave mankind dominion over all. That indicates a separation, not a connection. Ancient ppl from the New World indigenous ppl to pre-Roman European pagans to African tribes in general put humans into nature and part and parcel of it.
    Exactly, it’s why I’m more attracted to Eastern, pagan, Native American spirituality than Judeao/Christianity.

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