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Thread: Are Newsmax, OANN, and Fox Media threats to American Democracy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Uncle View Post
    Sorry, but if that were true, then there'd be no need to teach, or ban teaching, critical thinking in schools. While I think most Americans are of normal intelligence, I think too many of them lack a solid educational foundation to separate fact from opinion.

    Agreed on media spin to make a story plausible. Politicians are very good at it. Part of the problem is we're living in an era of immediate gratification and sound bites. People get their news from two-three sentences on cable news instead of reading an in depth article about an issue from a reputable source.

    Agreed a lot of people lack the ability. IMO, that's a reflection of our times and educational system.
    I was reading an article yesterday about how the Toadstool's blog and website are doing poorly, particularly when compared to his former popularity on FB and Twitter. I speculate that it's because his Cult doesn't care to read large blocks of text; they are almost all 130-character-limit folks. Absolutely perfect fodder for propagandists.

    OANN's splash page was comical. Just a few actual stories; the rest of it was shameless pandering, begging for money, and whipping up the "it's us against the big bad tech- and lib-ruled world" schtick.
    "Conservatism is the blind and fear-filled worship of dead radicals." -- Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Uncle View Post
    Disagreed that is all critical thinking is or boils down to. It's question everything, even oneself, not just authority.

    OTOH, Professor Walter Kotschnig's advice to Holyoke College students to keep their minds open—”but not so open that your brains fall out” is always appropriate.
    Then we agree that corporate media and higher education are manufacturing consent. Those who realize this are not stupid or blind. There are a lot of people with an 80 IQ who have a better understanding of the world and a stronger moral compass than most doctors, lawyers, and university professors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Uncle View Post
    Evangelicals are narrowing themselves into the same wacky niche as Scientologists.
    A lot of ppl do see them that way.

    Here's an odd thing that I haven't parsed out yet. A good many of my friends/coworkers who are black are also evangelicals. Yet not a single one of them has fallen under the thrall of the #MangoMessiah; in fact, they detest him. They vote for (D) politicians. They support left/liberal/Democrat ideals for the most part. (Some are anti-abortion but remain anti-Trump.) They are also far less judgmental regarding other ppl's religions or lack of faith, other ppl's failings (sins), and in general although very open about their faith, not in-your-face or pushy about it.

    Why are these two groups -- white evangelicals and black evangelicals -- so politically different?
    "Conservatism is the blind and fear-filled worship of dead radicals." -- Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatOwlWoman View Post
    I was reading an article yesterday about how the Toadstool's blog and website are doing poorly, particularly when compared to his former popularity on FB and Twitter. I speculate that it's because his Cult doesn't care to read large blocks of text; they are almost all 130-character-limit folks. Absolutely perfect fodder for propagandists.

    OANN's splash page was comical. Just a few actual stories; the rest of it was shameless pandering, begging for money, and whipping up the "it's us against the big bad tech- and lib-ruled world" schtick.
    It's all about the money. Ted Cruz sold out for money. Trump's primary focus on life is money. OANN, like all media, is a business. They have a niche catering to whack jobs, conspiracy buffs and sheeple....specifically MAGA-sheeple. Hundreds of MAGA-sheeple who Trump threw under the bus and now face prison, unemployment and financial destruction.

    God bless America and those who defend our Constitution.

    "Hatred is a failure of imagination" - Graham Greene, "The Power and the Glory"

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatOwlWoman View Post
    A lot of ppl do see them that way.

    Here's an odd thing that I haven't parsed out yet. A good many of my friends/coworkers who are black are also evangelicals. Yet not a single one of them has fallen under the thrall of the #MangoMessiah; in fact, they detest him. They vote for (D) politicians. They support left/liberal/Democrat ideals for the most part. (Some are anti-abortion but remain anti-Trump.) They are also far less judgmental regarding other ppl's religions or lack of faith, other ppl's failings (sins), and in general although very open about their faith, not in-your-face or pushy about it.

    Why are these two groups -- white evangelicals and black evangelicals -- so politically different?
    My guess is that you are seeing the difference between the collective view of a group versus the individual views of people. Individuals are not so easily pigeon-holed when it comes to views, beliefs and goals. Evangelicals, as a religious subset, are the largest religious group in the US and are a quarter of the population; about 82M Americans. That's a lot of people to pigeonhole.

    Add to this fact, as individuals, their beliefs and views run along a scale much grayer than simply 2-color palettes of B&W. Therefore, different points of view are to be expected. Why one main group favors Trump is, IMO, a means to an end.



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicalism
    In 2016, there were an estimated 619 million evangelicals in the world, meaning that one in four Christians would be classified as evangelical.[9] The United States has the largest proportion of evangelicals in the world.[10] American evangelicals are a quarter of that nation's population and its single largest religious group.[11][12] As a trans-denominational coalition, evangelicals can be found in nearly every Protestant denomination and tradition, particularly within the Reformed (Calvinist), Baptist, Methodist (Wesleyan-Arminian), Pentecostal and charismatic churches.[13][14]

    God bless America and those who defend our Constitution.

    "Hatred is a failure of imagination" - Graham Greene, "The Power and the Glory"

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatOwlWoman View Post
    A lot of ppl do see them that way.

    Here's an odd thing that I haven't parsed out yet. A good many of my friends/coworkers who are black are also evangelicals. Yet not a single one of them has fallen under the thrall of the #MangoMessiah; in fact, they detest him. They vote for (D) politicians. They support left/liberal/Democrat ideals for the most part. (Some are anti-abortion but remain anti-Trump.) They are also far less judgmental regarding other ppl's religions or lack of faith, other ppl's failings (sins), and in general although very open about their faith, not in-your-face or pushy about it.

    Why are these two groups -- white evangelicals and black evangelicals -- so politically different?
    My two cents: authentic religion and politics really actually have little to do with each other.

    A large proportion of white evangelicals are ethnic and cultural nationalists. That is a political, socio-economic choice which have nothing to do with the gospel of Jesus of Nazareth.

    White Christian nationalism obviously has little appeal to people of African origin. In my opinion, White Christian nationalism is the modern echo, the relict vestiges of slavery, European Colonialism, imperialism, Anglo-Saxon ethinic and economic hegemony.

    Those are generally foreign concepts, even an anathema to people of African descent who have a shared communal experience both through African cultural heritage and their experience as a minority in white America.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Uncle View Post
    My guess is that you are seeing the difference between the collective view of a group versus the individual views of people. Individuals are not so easily pigeon-holed when it comes to views, beliefs and goals. Evangelicals, as a religious subset, are the largest religious group in the US and are a quarter of the population; about 82M Americans. That's a lot of people to pigeonhole.
    I know probably twice as many evangelical whites as I know evangelical blacks. The whites are 100% Trumpanzee; not a single one of the blacks is. Yes, it's a small statistical sampling yet there is no denying it. Can you think of a single white evangelical that you know IRL who isn't politically to the right or the far right?

    I think Cypress's reply on this issue says it all -- one group calls themselves Christian while the other actually practices it for the most part.
    "Conservatism is the blind and fear-filled worship of dead radicals." -- Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    My two cents: authentic religion and politics really actually have little to do with each other.

    A large proportion of white evangelicals are ethnic and cultural nationalists. That is a political, socio-economic choice which have nothing to do with the gospel of Jesus of Nazareth.

    White Christian nationalism obviously has little appeal to people of African origin. In my opinion, White Christian nationalism is the modern echo, the relict vestiges of slavery, European Colonialism, imperialism, Anglo-Saxon ethinic and economic hegemony.

    Those are generally foreign concepts, even an anathema to people of African descent who have a shared communal experience both through African cultural heritage and their experience as a minority in white America.
    This is an excellent summary of the situation.
    "Conservatism is the blind and fear-filled worship of dead radicals." -- Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatOwlWoman View Post
    I know probably twice as many evangelical whites as I know evangelical blacks. The whites are 100% Trumpanzee; not a single one of the blacks is. Yes, it's a small statistical sampling yet there is no denying it. Can you think of a single white evangelical that you know IRL who isn't politically to the right or the far right?

    I think Cypress's reply on this issue says it all -- one group calls themselves Christian while the other actually practices it for the most part.
    It is a shame what white nationalist Trumpanzees have done to the reputation of Evangelical (as opposed to fundamentalist) Christianity. At one time, Evangelicals were at the forefront of slavery abolition, and the tip of the spear of many of the social justice and economic justice movements of the 19th and early 20th centuries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatOwlWoman View Post
    ....Why are these two groups -- white evangelicals and black evangelicals -- so politically different?
    Thanks for your input in this thread. To answer your question simply, they live in very separate worlds.

    Cypress nailed it above.
    Wanna make America great, buy American owned, made in the USA, we do. AF Veteran, INFJ-A, I am not PC.

    "I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord make my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it." Voltaire

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    Quote Originally Posted by midcan5 View Post
    Most of the information presented by Fox OAN and Newsmax pretends to be news but is opinion. Opinion that appeals to a segment of society that already agrees. Opinionated presentation targets divisive issues rather than reporting or analysis. It is an internal political correctness that sees news or politics through an agreed upon lenses that is often anti-democratic, anti-science, and even anti-intelligence. These media sources pretend to be conservative they are not. They conserve nothing, they posture, dismiss, and divide.

    It is an irony that Fox has become worse in an attempt to keep OAN and Newsmax at bay. Viewers are money. Modern American so called Conservative media now vies for the ridiculous if it feeds a bias, a hate, or criticizes. Add to this the death of local media along with the repeal of the Fairness Doctrine, Citizen's United, and the goose is cooked. Dark Money now rules.

    Add online media sources that appear in searches and news feeds. Many of these are dark money supported sites pretending to be news when they are agitprop. Political power and corporate power do not like democracy. Democracy too often muddies the water, a citizen sees the world differently than a government bureaucrat or a profit seeking corporate officer. How does that corporation control democracy, it controls the information media presents and it targets information based on the social profiles of its viewers, often white and rural. Dog whistles dominate.

    Democratic government is the favorite bogeyman of autocratic government. Lesser players in this game of deception include Breitbart, Townhall, and a host of sites that can be found in Internet searches - questionable sources are covered in links below. Online trolls have also proliferated in online social media. Some even gravitate to conspiracy sites or ideas of secession. This divisiveness takes many forms such as private schools, religious separation, and isolated rural community settings. Public education is too democratic, too open. How for instance could a pandemic become something other than a pandemic. Gaslighting from Fox ET AL have created a world of doubt. America leads the world in Covid-19 deaths, misinformation has consequences.

    So how do we understand the topic question when media is opinion, distortion, dog whistles, targeted, oppositional, using loaded words, words meant as pejorative or audience specific? Content without thought, words like 'cancel' 'woke' 'leftist' 'liberal' 'socialist' 'border' 'trans' 'guns' etcetera. What do they really mean outside the club? Their appeal is to tribe, to emotion, not content or analysis. Misinformation and distortion weaken a nation's political conversation. Ask always who benefits, what is its purpose, and is the information news or opinion. Seek sources that explain without always pointing fingers.

    Daniel Pipes wrote. "First, democracy is more than holding elections; it requires the development of civil society, meaning such complex and counter intuitive institutions as the rule of law, an independent judiciary, multiple political parties, minority rights, voluntary associations, freedom of expression, movement, and assembly. Democracy is a learned habit, not an instinctive one, that requires deep attitudinal changes such as a culture of restraint, a commonality of values, a respect for differences of view, the concept of loyal opposition, and a sense of civic responsibility."

    'The Five Biggest Threats Our Democracy Faces'

    https://www.brennancenter.org/our-wo...emocracy-faces

    And the SCOTUS threat:

    https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...mp-republicans

    Information Sources to check:

    https://iffy.news/
    https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/fake-news/
    http://politics.flackcheck.org/patterns-of-deception/

    One online news site I recommend: https://www.theguardian.com/us


    "Let us wage a moral and political war against the billionaires and corporate leaders, on Wall Street and elsewhere, whose policies and greed are destroying the middle class of America." Bernie Sanders
    I feel that these demagoguery news sites are a threat to the American way of life.
    Lock Him Up

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    Quote Originally Posted by midcan5 View Post
    Most of the information presented by Fox OAN and Newsmax pretends to be news but is opinion. Opinion that appeals to a segment of society that already agrees. Opinionated presentation targets divisive issues rather than reporting or analysis. It is an internal political correctness that sees news or politics through an agreed upon lenses that is often anti-democratic, anti-science, and even anti-intelligence. These media sources pretend to be conservative they are not. They conserve nothing, they posture, dismiss, and divide.

    It is an irony that Fox has become worse in an attempt to keep OAN and Newsmax at bay. Viewers are money. Modern American so called Conservative media now vies for the ridiculous if it feeds a bias, a hate, or criticizes. Add to this the death of local media along with the repeal of the Fairness Doctrine, Citizen's United, and the goose is cooked. Dark Money now rules.

    Add online media sources that appear in searches and news feeds. Many of these are dark money supported sites pretending to be news when they are agitprop. Political power and corporate power do not like democracy. Democracy too often muddies the water, a citizen sees the world differently than a government bureaucrat or a profit seeking corporate officer. How does that corporation control democracy, it controls the information media presents and it targets information based on the social profiles of its viewers, often white and rural. Dog whistles dominate.

    Democratic government is the favorite bogeyman of autocratic government. Lesser players in this game of deception include Breitbart, Townhall, and a host of sites that can be found in Internet searches - questionable sources are covered in links below. Online trolls have also proliferated in online social media. Some even gravitate to conspiracy sites or ideas of secession. This divisiveness takes many forms such as private schools, religious separation, and isolated rural community settings. Public education is too democratic, too open. How for instance could a pandemic become something other than a pandemic. Gaslighting from Fox ET AL have created a world of doubt. America leads the world in Covid-19 deaths, misinformation has consequences.

    So how do we understand the topic question when media is opinion, distortion, dog whistles, targeted, oppositional, using loaded words, words meant as pejorative or audience specific? Content without thought, words like 'cancel' 'woke' 'leftist' 'liberal' 'socialist' 'border' 'trans' 'guns' etcetera. What do they really mean outside the club? Their appeal is to tribe, to emotion, not content or analysis. Misinformation and distortion weaken a nation's political conversation. Ask always who benefits, what is its purpose, and is the information news or opinion. Seek sources that explain without always pointing fingers.

    Daniel Pipes wrote. "First, democracy is more than holding elections; it requires the development of civil society, meaning such complex and counter intuitive institutions as the rule of law, an independent judiciary, multiple political parties, minority rights, voluntary associations, freedom of expression, movement, and assembly. Democracy is a learned habit, not an instinctive one, that requires deep attitudinal changes such as a culture of restraint, a commonality of values, a respect for differences of view, the concept of loyal opposition, and a sense of civic responsibility."

    'The Five Biggest Threats Our Democracy Faces'

    https://www.brennancenter.org/our-wo...emocracy-faces

    And the SCOTUS threat:

    https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...mp-republicans

    Information Sources to check:

    https://iffy.news/
    https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/fake-news/
    http://politics.flackcheck.org/patterns-of-deception/

    One online news site I recommend: https://www.theguardian.com/us


    "Let us wage a moral and political war against the billionaires and corporate leaders, on Wall Street and elsewhere, whose policies and greed are destroying the middle class of America." Bernie Sanders
    As your article implies, this is all profit driven, and it is not just on the right, the left has their share, although not as dominant. It is all about the buck, infotainment, and nothing sells better than melodrama, good guy’s vs bad guy’s.

    Always been there, but with erasing the Fairness Doctrine it took the handcuffs off, or as Limbaugh observed, that day made his career. Talk radio evolved into cable “news” into now social media, and the drama has escalated, which were once the other side is now evil and unAmerican

    Ain’t changing anytime soon, as I noted, as long as there is a dollar to be made, it will occur

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatOwlWoman View Post
    I know probably twice as many evangelical whites as I know evangelical blacks. The whites are 100% Trumpanzee; not a single one of the blacks is. Yes, it's a small statistical sampling yet there is no denying it. Can you think of a single white evangelical that you know IRL who isn't politically to the right or the far right?

    I think Cypress's reply on this issue says it all -- one group calls themselves Christian while the other actually practices it for the most part.
    Consider that an Evangelical who doesn't hold some conservative views isn't an Evangelical.

    While it's true Jesus would be defined as a liberal by today's standards, being an adherent to a religion is conservative in nature.

    Also consider that the best group to become the backbone of the Republican party is religious, traditional and family-oriented but since they are mostly brown-skinned, the modern Republican party has rejected them in favor of racist politics.

    Note that gop.com hasn't even maintained the link to the Growth and Opportunity project AKA 2012 Republican Autopsy nor did they seek to follow the recommendations after the results:
    https://gop.com/growth-and-opportunity-project/

    Following the 2012 Election, the American people sent a clear message that it was time for the Republican Party to grow. In response, Chairman Priebus issued an assessment of the party by the Growth and Opportunity Project task force. Reaching out to hundreds of party leaders and grassroots activists across the country, the task force issued a list of recommendations to the RNC to help pave a path to victory. This project is an ongoing commitment to get input from people all across the country on ways to grow our party. We have hired new staff and have put millions of dollars into Demographic Outreach and data and technology improvements. Read the full report below:


    The report itself: https://online.wsj.com/public/resour...rt03182013.pdf

    Another working link: https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...rowth-and.html
    God bless America and those who defend our Constitution.

    "Hatred is a failure of imagination" - Graham Greene, "The Power and the Glory"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Uncle View Post
    Facts need no rebuttal, but opinions do. If people understand the difference between a fact and an opinion, then there'd be less confusion.

    Is there any doubt that some news businesses are more factual than others? That some are more entertainment than news? More theatrics than education?

    Only people with critical thinking skills can tell the difference....and JPP is full of people who can't tell the difference.
    It isn't simply a question of the difference between facts and opinions. It is often the difference between select facts disseminated to create/support an opinion vs the complete set of facts.
    Then it is a question of knowing one's audience and how diligent they will be in reading the entire article. Click bait headlines that don't really represent what is in the 4th and 5th paragraphs are a great way to sway opinion while reporting the facts knowing 90% of your audience will never read the whole story.
    "We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid."

    "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain - and most fools do."

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    Quote Originally Posted by midcan5 View Post
    Most of the information presented by Fox OAN and Newsmax pretends to be news but is opinion.
    less so than MSNBC, CNN and NBC......
    Isaiah 6:5
    “Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty.”

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