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Thread: Should Two- and Four-Year Degrees Be Free?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BidenPresident View Post
    You resent the educated. Got it.
    i resent the arrogant educated. huge difference. while I have met many college graduates who are arrogant and conceited about being college educated, i've also met quite a few who are decent and courteous to anyone
    A sad commentary on we, as a people, and our viewpoint of our freedom can be summed up like this. We have liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans, yet those very people look at Constitutionalists as radical and extreme.................so those liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans must believe that the constitution is radical and extreme.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SmarterthanYou View Post
    make them free and they will be
    You have already been told that that's a stupid argument that you're unable to support. You just keep repeating yourself. A full ride scholarship is not worthless. A public high school education is not worthless. Universal health care is not worthless. The absence of a bill for something does not in and of itself make that thing worthless. If you're opposed to "free" postsecondary education, then you're going to need a better reason than "it's worthless".

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    Quote Originally Posted by BidenPresident View Post
    The Biden administration has proposed reforms to ease the student-debt crisis. But a real solution must upend a system of cascading inequities. Restoring the dream of higher education as an equalizer requires a holistic solution that attacks all the sources of the problem: a lack of investment in common goods, growing tuition and student debt and exploitative labor practices that undermine the quality of education.

    The rise in tuition costs, combined with the growing economic value of a college degree, fuels the crisis of student debt, which today totals $1.7 trillion. To pay for a year of school, three-quarters of American families pay at least 24 percent of their average family income, even after grants are distributed.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/13/o...t-sanders.html
    No, 9-12 should teach a viable trade. Nothing is free. 12 years of free should be enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel View Post
    You have already been told that that's a stupid argument that you're unable to support. You just keep repeating yourself. A full ride scholarship is not worthless. A public high school education is not worthless. Universal health care is not worthless. The absence of a bill for something does not in and of itself make that thing worthless. If you're opposed to "free" postsecondary education, then you're going to need a better reason than "it's worthless".
    I can think of several:

    1. We already provide 12 years of free, so we are in fact arguing over when should a person be expected to start making their own way in this world and contribute.
    2. The old fairness chestnut, I paid why should the next group get it free?
    3. People who are given something as opposed to earning it value it less and waste it more. Someone who is putting their own blood sweat and tears into it will be a serious student
    4. Shifts costs from those benefitting to those who are not.
    5. What will the bankers at Navient do for a living? (joke)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Micawber View Post
    I can think of several:

    1. We already provide 12 years of free, so we are in fact arguing over when should a person be expected to start making their own way in this world and contribute.
    2. The old fairness chestnut, I paid why should the next group get it free?
    3. People who are given something as opposed to earning it value it less and waste it more. Someone who is putting their own blood sweat and tears into it will be a serious student
    4. Shifts costs from those benefitting to those who are not.
    5. What will the bankers at Navient do for a living? (joke)
    It's a question of whether the social benefits of providing "free" education outweigh or justify the costs. I worked while attending public high schools and also "contributed" to the tax base and my own quality of life at the same time. Parents are also expected to provide for their minor children, so "making one's own way" is not exactly analogous to paying out of pocket for school.

    I don't place any value in the chestnut thing. Old people complain about everything. Things change and life isn't fair.

    You know as well as I do that many, if not most, of the people who graduate college were not serious students nor did they expend much blood, sweat, and tears. Their parents paid for them to drink for four (or more) years and they showed up for occasional exams.

    I don't necessarily support "free" postsecondary education, but it has become obscenely unaffordable. It took me a decade to pay off my undergraduate student loans. I went to a public university and had to delay home ownership longer than any recent generation that came before mine. There is value in education for those who take it seriously, but a bill does not in and of itself make something more serious or valuable than something else.

    Edit: Those things said, your reasons are way better than Smarterthanyou's "worthless argument".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel View Post
    You have already been told that that's a stupid argument that you're unable to support. You just keep repeating yourself. A full ride scholarship is not worthless. A public high school education is not worthless. Universal health care is not worthless. The absence of a bill for something does not in and of itself make that thing worthless. If you're opposed to "free" postsecondary education, then you're going to need a better reason than "it's worthless".
    go back and reread what i've posted
    A sad commentary on we, as a people, and our viewpoint of our freedom can be summed up like this. We have liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans, yet those very people look at Constitutionalists as radical and extreme.................so those liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans must believe that the constitution is radical and extreme.

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    That isn't what you are asking about, nothing is "free"... what you are asking is should we, as a society, pay for the school of every American all the way through College. I'm sure this debate will sound like the same debate from long ago about educating all the way through High School.
    Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but rather we have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
    - -- Aristotle

    Believe nothing on the faith of traditions, even though they have been held in honor for many generations and in diverse places. Do not believe a thing because many people speak of it. Do not believe on the faith of the sages of the past. Do not believe what you yourself have imagined, persuading yourself that a God inspires you. Believe nothing on the sole authority of your masters and priests. After examination, believe what you yourself have tested and found to be reasonable, and conform your conduct thereto.
    - -- The Buddha

    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
    - -- Aristotle

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    College degrees and vocational training should be heavily subsidized and easily affordable to anyone with the interest and commitment to complete a program of study.

    500 years of world economic history consistently proves that the path to economic growth is political stability, productivity, public investments in infrastructure, education and human capital.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SmarterthanYou View Post
    go back and reread what i've posted
    Nah, I'll pass. You're trying to draw a distinction that doesn't exist because you know that you don't have a defensible argument. In fact, you haven't even tried to support it. "Free equals worthless because I said so."

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    Nothing is free.

    The actual question is, should they be funded with tax revenue?

    The answer depends on whether of not we want to be as well educated as nations who do fund education.
    Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. Samuel Johnson, 1775
    Religion....is the opiate of the people. Karl Marx, 1848
    Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose. Kris Kristofferson, 1969

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    Quote Originally Posted by NiftyNiblick View Post
    Nothing is free.

    The actual question is, should they be funded with tax revenue?
    I would have hoped everyone understood that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BidenPresident View Post
    I would have hoped everyone understood that.
    At your house and mine, everybody would have understood that.

    We're on JPP.
    Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. Samuel Johnson, 1775
    Religion....is the opiate of the people. Karl Marx, 1848
    Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose. Kris Kristofferson, 1969

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    What people don't understand that those who graduated from State colleges will put the money back into circulation through jobs. It boosts economy and job market.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NiftyNiblick View Post
    At your house and mine, everybody would have understood that.

    We're on JPP.
    Yes. People who think tourists were the ones entering the Capitol on January 6.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    What people don't understand that those who graduated from State colleges will put the money back into circulation through jobs. It boosts economy and job market.
    Post 72 also applies to that.
    Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. Samuel Johnson, 1775
    Religion....is the opiate of the people. Karl Marx, 1848
    Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose. Kris Kristofferson, 1969

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