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Thread: The clockwork universe: is free will an illusion?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poor Richard Saunders View Post
    Are you saying Conservatives/Liberals were born stupid and there is nothing we can do to change that?
    I am not saying that, no. But you asked the right question. If there is no free will, then why punish criminals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BidenPresident View Post
    Why did the quote have "God" in it then?
    Don't worry about the word. It's some kind of a metaphor. In other words, Einstein believed that we have no free well and the universe is deterministic. Quantum Mechanics challenged that belief.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BidenPresident View Post
    A growing chorus of scientists and philosophers argue that free will does not exist.
    It doesn't for you. Now get back to watching CNN and believing everything that you are told.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BidenPresident View Post
    I am not saying that, no. But you asked the right question. If there is no free will, then why punish criminals.
    That's a very good question. I've had a long discussion with someone about that years ago. It was enlightening.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    Don't worry about the word. It's some kind of a metaphor. In other words, Einstein believed that we have no free well and the universe is deterministic. Quantum Mechanics challenged that belief.
    I don't think Einstein believed there is no free will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Eagle View Post
    It doesn't for you. Now get back to watching CNN and believing everything that you are told.
    I may have to ban you. Stalker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BidenPresident View Post
    Science has no role for human beings.
    And in America, too many human beings [or almost human mutants] see no role for science.
    Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. Samuel Johnson, 1775
    Religion....is the opiate of the people. Karl Marx, 1848
    Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose. Kris Kristofferson, 1969

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    Quote Originally Posted by BidenPresident View Post
    I don't think Einstein believed there is no free will.
    Free will
    Like Spinoza, Einstein was a strict determinist who believed that human behavior was completely determined by causal laws. For that reason, he refused the chance aspect of quantum theory, famously telling Niels Bohr: "God does not play dice with the universe."[77] In letters sent to physicist Max Born, Einstein revealed his belief in causal relationships:

    You believe in a God who plays dice, and I in complete law and order in a world which objectively exists, and which I in a wildly speculative way, am trying to capture. I firmly believe, but I hope that someone will discover a more realistic way, or rather a more tangible basis than it has been my lot to find. Even the great initial success of the quantum theory does not make me believe in the fundamental dice game, although I am well aware that some of our younger colleagues interpret this as a consequence of senility.[78]


    I do not believe in free will. Schopenhauer's words: 'Man can do what he wants, but he cannot will what he wills,' accompany me in all situations throughout my life and reconcile me with the actions of others, even if they are rather painful to me. This awareness of the lack of free will keeps me from taking myself and my fellow men too seriously as acting and deciding individuals, and from losing my temper.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religi...tein#Free_will

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    Quote Originally Posted by NiftyNiblick View Post
    And in America, too many human beings [or almost human mutants] see no role for science.
    The problem with scientific explanation is that human beings do not exist. It is a useful method but leaves out the fact that humans do science.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    Free will
    Like Spinoza, Einstein was a strict determinist who believed that human behavior was completely determined by causal laws. For that reason, he refused the chance aspect of quantum theory, famously telling Niels Bohr: "God does not play dice with the universe."[77] In letters sent to physicist Max Born, Einstein revealed his belief in causal relationships:

    You believe in a God who plays dice, and I in complete law and order in a world which objectively exists, and which I in a wildly speculative way, am trying to capture. I firmly believe, but I hope that someone will discover a more realistic way, or rather a more tangible basis than it has been my lot to find. Even the great initial success of the quantum theory does not make me believe in the fundamental dice game, although I am well aware that some of our younger colleagues interpret this as a consequence of senility.[78]


    I do not believe in free will. Schopenhauer's words: 'Man can do what he wants, but he cannot will what he wills,' accompany me in all situations throughout my life and reconcile me with the actions of others, even if they are rather painful to me. This awareness of the lack of free will keeps me from taking myself and my fellow men too seriously as acting and deciding individuals, and from losing my temper.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religi...tein#Free_will

    Not reading it. I honestly don't give a shit what Einstein thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BidenPresident View Post
    Not reading it. I honestly don't give a shit what Einstein thought.
    I don't care what you think about what Einstein thought. The POINT is that QM challenges the concept of NO free well and a deterministic universe.

    Newtonian universe does not allow "chances".

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    Many humans are too vain to believe that they're merely one species on the chain of evolution.

    I've believed that my entire adult life, however.

    I've interacted with too many fellow humans to be impressed, I guess.
    Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. Samuel Johnson, 1775
    Religion....is the opiate of the people. Karl Marx, 1848
    Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose. Kris Kristofferson, 1969

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    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    I don't care what you think about what Einstein thought. The POINT is that QM challenges the concept of NO free well and a deterministic universe.

    Newtonian universe does not allow "chances".
    You said that already. Okay.

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    I don't believe in free will. Our decisions are a product of chemical and electrical processes that we have no control over. It's the programming. We are each wired to do exactly what we do. That being said, there are so many factors that determine the outcome that we could make a completely different choice if one variable changes. So I think 'free will' is more like a random number generator than some choice 'we' make. Frankly, 'we' are just matter and energy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NiftyNiblick View Post
    Many humans are too vain to believe that they're merely one species on the chain of evolution.

    I've believed that my entire adult life, however.

    I've interacted with too many fellow humans to be impressed, I guess.

    Agree. Nothing special about the human species.

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