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Thread: "God is dead"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Uncle View Post
    How so? Not a philosopher like y'all, and not a reader of Nietzsche, but from what I've read, he wanted mankind to see the bigger picture beyond worshiping idols and wearing funny hats.

    He seemed to want mankind to transcend to the Übermensch in the physical universe rather than focus on what we'd become in an afterlife.

    This is similar to Buddhism in that Buddha recognized that there's no way to prove the afterlife, but that we should live the most "right", just lives possible to maximize our mortal potential and prepare ourselves for what may come; the Eightfold Path.



    https://www.pbs.org/edens/thailand/buddhism.htm
    The steps of the Noble Eightfold Path are Right Understanding, Right Thought, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration. Moreover, there are three themes into which the Path is divided: good moral conduct (Understanding, Thought, Speech); meditation and mental development (Action, Livelihood, Effort), and wisdom or insight (Mindfulness and Concentration).
    My understanding of Nietzsche is that not only did he not believe in a higher reality, a transcendent spiritual truth (aka, the Christian-Platonist view) but he actively thought such a view was harmful to us. A focus on the afterlife, the spritual, the divine caused us to become slaves to an obsession with guilt, sin, and salvation.

    Neitchze was focused on reality in this world. I suppose you could say he was advocating a type of spirituality in this world. He thought we should break the chains of the past and cultivate imagination, creativity, and endeavor to make our lives a work of art..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Uncle View Post
    Isn't that human? We formulate an ideal and then work toward it? .
    Nothing to do with practical action.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    My understanding of Nietzsche is that not only did he not believe in a higher reality, a transcendent spiritual truth (aka, the Christian-Platonist view) but he actively thought such a view was harmful to us. A focus on the afterlife, the spritual, the divine caused us to become slaves to an obsession with guilt, sin, and salvation.

    Neitchze was focused on reality in this world. I suppose you could say he was advocating a type of spirituality in this world. He thought we should break the chains of the past and cultivate imagination, creativity, and endeavor to make our lives a work of art..

    I don't know why people keep referring to Nietzsche as spiritual.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BidenPresident View Post
    Nothing to do with practical action.
    Please give an example or two since I'm not following.

    Consider JFK's 1962 Moon speech. It's inspirational and idealistic, but it took a lot of work, money and lives to make it happen. The difference between idealism and realism.

    https://er.jsc.nasa.gov/seh/ricetalk.htm
    God bless America and those who defend our Constitution.

    "Hatred is a failure of imagination" - Graham Greene, "The Power and the Glory"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Uncle View Post
    Please give an example or two since I'm not following.

    Consider JFK's 1962 Moon speech. It's inspirational and idealistic, but it took a lot of work, money and lives to make it happen. The difference between idealism and realism.

    https://er.jsc.nasa.gov/seh/ricetalk.htm

    Do you understand the difference between concepts and practical action?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BidenPresident View Post
    I don't know why people keep referring to Nietzsche as spiritual.
    Dogma, even religious dogma, tends to be mortal views. Who here really believes Heaven is all of us, except for a few, sitting around a golden thrown at the feet of an old God singing Hosannas? Those that do are applying a mortal view on the eternal. Same for Hell.

    I think Nietzsche is "spiritual" because he's looking at maximizing mankind's potential within the limitation of their mortality. This is why I drew a line between him and Siddhartha Gautama.

    God bless America and those who defend our Constitution.

    "Hatred is a failure of imagination" - Graham Greene, "The Power and the Glory"

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    Quote Originally Posted by BidenPresident View Post
    Do you understand the difference between concepts and practical action?
    Yes. Do you think JFK's speech was idealistic? Yes or no, please.
    God bless America and those who defend our Constitution.

    "Hatred is a failure of imagination" - Graham Greene, "The Power and the Glory"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Uncle View Post
    Yes. Do you think JFK's speech was idealistic? Yes or no, please.

    Hint: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/idealistic
    You do not understand what concepts are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BidenPresident View Post
    You do not understand what concepts are.
    Disagreed, but I can see your mind is closed. Good luck.
    God bless America and those who defend our Constitution.

    "Hatred is a failure of imagination" - Graham Greene, "The Power and the Glory"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Uncle View Post
    Disagreed, but I can see your mind is closed. Good luck.
    You think a concept and a practical action are the same thing? Explain how thinking about the nature of the universe is like getting in your car and driving.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BidenPresident View Post
    You think a concept and a practical action are the same thing? Explain how thinking about the nature of the universe is like getting in your car and driving.
    No, I don't, but, again, you've obviously made a judgement and closed your mind to further discussion. No matter.

    For everyone else, a Zen Tale:

    There was a Japanese Zen master named Nan-in who lived during the Meiji era (1868-1912). During his days as a teacher, he was visited by a university professor curious about Zen.

    Being polite, Nan-in served the professor a cup of tea.

    As he poured, the professor’s cup became full, but Nan-in kept on pouring. As the professor watched the cup overflow, he could no longer contain himself and said, “It is overfull. No more will go in!”

    Nan-in turned to the professor and said, “Like the cup, you are too full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?”

    https://www.gloveworx.com/blog/simple-cup-of-tea-story/
    God bless America and those who defend our Constitution.

    "Hatred is a failure of imagination" - Graham Greene, "The Power and the Glory"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Uncle View Post
    No
    Good. So Plato was referring to our concepts, not practical action.

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    Plato asks, what is justice? How do we know what justice is? There is an ideal form of justice which determines what we think justice is. For Plato, we should inquire about the ideal form of justice, the form of justice which justifies all uses of the concept of justice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    My understanding of Nietzsche is that not only did he not believe in a higher reality, a transcendent spiritual truth (aka, the Christian-Platonist view) but he actively thought such a view was harmful to us. A focus on the afterlife, the spritual, the divine caused us to become slaves to an obsession with guilt, sin, and salvation.

    Neitchze was focused on reality in this world. I suppose you could say he was advocating a type of spirituality in this world. He thought we should break the chains of the past and cultivate imagination, creativity, and endeavor to make our lives a work of art..
    Again, not an expert on Nietzsche, but, again, like Buddhism, there is recognizing what is real and what we cannot know. Real is knowable, the spiritual is a matter of faith.

    Nietzsche's biggest complaint was the dogma of religion, specifically the predominant Christian church of the time. Most of the passages I've read here and elsewhere dealt with focusing upon maximizing our mortal potential. Buddhists do the same**. We can live "right" and become the best people we can, Ubermen, or we can continue to be one step above chimpanzees.

    Yes, as you noted, cultivating our lives to be better people, the ideal Uberman, is a good path, is it not? Despite their spiritual beliefs, wouldn't they be doing exactly what Christians should be doing? Helping the poor? Eliminating suffering? Maximizing the potential of both our lives and those of others?





    **A statement as general as saying "Christians do the same" despite the fact there are major differences between the denominations.
    God bless America and those who defend our Constitution.

    "Hatred is a failure of imagination" - Graham Greene, "The Power and the Glory"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Uncle View Post
    Again, not an expert on Nietzsche, but, again, like Buddhism, there is recognizing what is real and what we cannot know. Real is knowable, the spiritual is a matter of faith.

    Nietzsche's biggest complaint was the dogma of religion, specifically the predominant Christian church of the time. Most of the passages I've read here and elsewhere dealt with focusing upon maximizing our mortal potential. Buddhists do the same**. We can live "right" and become the best people we can, Ubermen, or we can continue to be one step above chimpanzees.

    Yes, as you noted, cultivating our lives to be better people, the ideal Uberman, is a good path, is it not? Despite their spiritual beliefs, wouldn't they be doing exactly what Christians should be doing? Helping the poor? Eliminating suffering? Maximizing the potential of both our lives and those of others?





    **A statement as general as saying "Christians do the same" despite the fact there are major differences between the denominations.
    I agree with you in principle that there are many paths to the cultivation of virtue and personel enlightenment.

    The Existentialism of Nietzsche is one path. I am not saying it is a superior path or even the right path.

    Christianity, Buddhism, Daoism are obviously alternative modes of belief all of which have their merits along with Existentialism.

    The bottom line, I think you and I would agree, is that humans seem hard wired to want to believe in an idealized model of personal conduct and to believe in a context (religious, spritual, social, or intellectual) larger than one's self.

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