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Thread: "God is dead"

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    Quote Originally Posted by guno View Post
    In Jewish tradition, the Tree of Knowledge and the eating of its fruit represents the beginning of the mixture of good and evil together.

    Satan in Judaism is not a physical being ruling the underworld, rather, in the Torah, the word Satan indicates “accuser,” “hinderer” or “tempter.” Satan is therefore more an illusory obstacle in one’s way - such as temptation and evil doings - keeping one from completing the responsibilities of tikkun olam (fixing the world). Satan is the evil inclination to veer off the path of righteousness and faithfulness in God.

    The Book of Job is sometimes cited to support the claim that the Jewish view of Satan as an agent of God is different from the Christian view, which sees Satan as an autonomous force opposed to God. In the story, Satan inflicts suffering on a human being and seeks to induce him to sin — but only with God’s permission.
    Thanks. Some Christians even see Satan as more as God's Prosecutor rather than the source of all evil.

    That never made sense to me since, if God is all powerful and all knowing, why couldn't God foresee Lucifer's revolt? It makes more sense that God would create Lucifer for contrast in man's free will; can't have free will if one doesn't have a choice or a range of choices.

    Any ideas on where the story of Lucifer and the war in Heaven came about? Does Judaism see Lucifer as more of an agent of God rather than an opponent.
    Stripping Americans of their rights, regardless if inalienable or unenumerated, is against American ideals

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Uncle View Post
    Thanks. Some Christians even see Satan as more as God's Prosecutor rather than the source of all evil.

    That never made sense to me since, if God is all powerful and all knowing, why couldn't God foresee Lucifer's revolt? It makes more sense that God would create Lucifer for contrast in man's free will; can't have free will if one doesn't have a choice or a range of choices.

    Any ideas on where the story of Lucifer and the war in Heaven came about? Does Judaism see Lucifer as more of an agent of God rather than an opponent.
    yep God is without form and omnipresent
    Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. Albert Einstein

    America's future is bright, not white

    And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment


    ברוך השם

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Uncle View Post
    Thanks. Some Christians even see Satan as more as God's Prosecutor rather than the source of all evil.

    That never made sense to me since, if God is all powerful and all knowing, why couldn't God foresee Lucifer's revolt? It makes more sense that God would create Lucifer for contrast in man's free will; can't have free will if one doesn't have a choice or a range of choices.

    Any ideas on where the story of Lucifer and the war in Heaven came about? Does Judaism see Lucifer as more of an agent of God rather than an opponent.
    Satan in Judaism is not a physical being ruling the underworld, rather, in the Torah, the word Satan indicates “accuser,” “hinderer” or “tempter.” Satan is therefore more an illusory obstacle in one’s way - such as temptation and evil doings - keeping one from completing the responsibilities of tikkun olam (fixing the world). Satan is the evil inclination to veer off the path of righteousness and faithfulness in God.
    Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. Albert Einstein

    America's future is bright, not white

    And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment


    ברוך השם

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    SATAN: What the Bible Really Teaches About the Devil

    https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge...bout-the-devil
    Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. Albert Einstein

    America's future is bright, not white

    And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment


    ברוך השם

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    The term “original sin” is unknown to the Jewish Scriptures, and the Church’s teachings on this doctrine are antithetical to the core principles of the Torah and its prophets



    The doctrine of original sin is totally unacceptable to Jews , Jews believe that man enters the world free of sin, with a soul that is pure and innocent and untainted.
    Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. Albert Einstein

    America's future is bright, not white

    And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment


    ברוך השם

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    Quote Originally Posted by goat View Post
    Go back and read your take on Nietzsche and religion. There is a camp of scholars who argue that Socrates is the alter ego of Plato. Hitchens makes a good comparison of Socrates and Jesus being ghost. Philosophers are not real until they write it down.
    I have never heard a reputable scholar of antiquity say Socrates was a fictional character.

    Christopher Hitchens is not a scholar of antiquity, I do not think he even has a PhD, and as far as I can tell he became a militant atheist who made it a goal to troll Christians.

    I do not deny there possibly might be scholars of antiquity who consider Socrates and Jesus to be fictional characters, but they are too few and way to far outside the mainstream to be given much weight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    I have never heard a reputable scholar of antiquity say Socrates was a fictional character.

    Christopher Hitchens is not a scholar of antiquity, I do not think he even has a PhD, and as far as I can tell he became a militant atheist who made it a goal to troll Christians.

    I do not deny there possibly might be scholars of antiquity who consider Socrates and Jesus to be fictional characters, but they are too few and way to far outside the mainstream to be given much weight.
    Can we agree the dialogues of Socrates are fiction? If so what makes you think he is real? Again, Plato was able to say things he was afraid to say through his fictional character Socrates. Scholars debate this as much as they debate the existence of Jesus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by goat View Post
    Can we agree the dialogues of Socrates are fiction? If so what makes you think he is real? Again, Plato was able to say things he was afraid to say through his fictional character Socrates. Scholars debate this as much as they debate the existence of Jesus.
    Yes, obviously Plato put some of his own ideas into Socrates' character in the dialogues. Socrates was a historical person, and people knew who he was -- so it would have looked foolish if Plato utterly misrepresented Socrates' general outlook on the human condition.

    Plato obviously held his teacher Socrates in the highest esteem, but we will never be sure how much of the dialogues represented Plato's thinking as directly influenced by Socrates.

    Probably most of The Republic is straight from the mind of Plato, but he undoutedly was influenced by the Socratic method and the moral philosophy of Socrates.

    There is no genuine debate among reputable scholars of antiquity about the historicity of Socrates and Jesus.
    Last edited by Cypress; 05-09-2021 at 06:22 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    Yes, obviously Plato put some of his own ideas into Socrates' character in the dialogues. Socrates was a historical person, and people knew who he was -- so it would have looked foolish if Plato utterly misrepresented Socrates' general outlook on the human condition.

    Plato obviously held his teacher Socrates in the highest esteem, but we will never be sure how much of the dialogues represented Plato's thinking as directly influenced by Socrates.

    Probably most of The Republic is straight from the mind of Plato, but he undoutedly was influenced by the Socratic method and the moral philosophy of Socrates.

    There is no genuine debate among reputable scholars of antiquity about the historicity of Socrates and Jesus.
    Christian scholars believe the bible was directly influenced by Jesus, yet it is argued that the bible is a moral message with Jesus being a fictional character, or that there were many rabbis opposed to war and were spreading the word of a peaceful god which resulted in them being crucified.

    I find it odd that 2 of the most influential philosophers never put pen to paper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by goat View Post
    Christian scholars believe the bible was directly influenced by Jesus, yet it is argued that the bible is a moral message with Jesus being a fictional character, or that there were many rabbis opposed to war and were spreading the word of a peaceful god which resulted in them being crucified.

    I find it odd that 2 of the most influential philosophers never put pen to paper.
    It is remarkable that any writing survives from the Late Bronze age.

    Plato explained why Socrates did not write, and I mentioned it in a previous post.

    Jesus was almost certainly illiterate, and could not write. The son of first century peasants from a one horse town, in a backwater province of the Roman Empire almost certainly never went to any school or received any academic education.

    Moreover, Jesus was not an "influential" philosopher in his own lifetime. He was a Jewish apocalypticist with a ministry of a couple dozen people in the backwater, rural province of Galilee. He barely would have stood out against the other apocalyptic Jewish teachers of that time.

    No one was clamouring for Jesus to write his biography and teachings, which he could not have done anyway due to his probable illiteracy.

    The teachings of Jesus were circulated in written form decades after his execution, by highly educated Greek-speakers who recorded the events of Jesus' life based on the oral traditions about his him which were circulating in Palestine and Asia Minor. Paul is who made Jesus a household word by the fourth century.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    It is remarkable that any writing survives from the Late Bronze age.

    Plato explained why Socrates did not write, and I mentioned it in a previous post.

    Jesus was almost certainly illiterate, and could not write. The son of first century peasants from a one horse town, in a backwater province of the Roman Empire almost certainly never went to any school or received any academic education.

    Moreover, Jesus was not an "influential" philosopher in his own lifetime. He was a Jewish apocalypticist with a ministry of a couple dozen people in the backwater, rural province of Galilee. He barely would have stood out against the other apocalyptic Jewish teachers of that time.

    No one was clamouring for Jesus to write his biography and teachings, which he could not have done anyway due to his probable illiteracy.

    The teachings of Jesus were circulated in written form decades after his execution, by highly educated Greek-speakers who recorded the events of Jesus' life based on the oral traditions about his him which were circulating in Palestine and Asia Minor. Paul is who made Jesus a household word by the fourth century.
    In ancient Greece, the senate would vote for an influential and virtuous Athenian to become a demigod, similar to the way the pope decides who becomes a saint. It was Plato lobbying the senate through Socrates to be voted a demigod. We can see how frustrated Plato becomes when he is not being considered a vote for demigod. If Socrates actually walked the streets of Athens, he certainly would have been voted a demigod postmortem. According to Plato, Athens also held Socrates in high esteem and left a boat for him to escape the city and avoid the hemlock.

    We can see the Greek influence on early christianity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by goat View Post
    In ancient Greece, the senate would vote for an influential and virtuous Athenian to become a demigod, similar to the way the pope decides who becomes a saint. It was Plato lobbying the senate through Socrates to be voted a demigod. We can see how frustrated Plato becomes when he is not being considered a vote for demigod. If Socrates actually walked the streets of Athens, he certainly would have been voted a demigod postmortem. According to Plato, Athens also held Socrates in high esteem and left a boat for him to escape the city and avoid the hemlock.

    We can see the Greek influence on early christianity.

    you're insane

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    Quote Originally Posted by BidenPresident View Post
    you're insane
    JPP voted you a demagogue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by goat View Post
    JPP voted you a demagogue.
    you are an idiot

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