What is it with you, Lefty? You have always seemed to be quite logical and intelligent in the past. But this is turning you inside out.
How can you possibly insist it is impossible for someone to "believe" it is more likely that there are no gods than that there is at least one????
I personally know dozens of people who "believe" that...and I suspect that you "believe" it also.
In any case, YOU undoubtedly know dozens of people who "believe" that also.
Are you really going to stoop to this kind of bullshit?Wrong about what?
You wrote: "How can the term "atheist" in ANY language come BEFORE the term "theist" (or "gods") in ANY language?"
The solid inference is that it cannot happen.
BUT IT DID HAPPEN...and I have cited evidence for it happening.
I'd ask him/her if he/she had seen any good movies lately...and get the subject changed.Let me ask you a question. If someone comes up to you and tells you that he saw a Bigfoot. What do you do or say?
ON HIS WORST DAY, JOE BIDEN IS A BETTER PRESIDENT THAN TRUMP WAS ON HIS BEST DAY!
Imagine being both omniscient and omnipotent, but as a creator, this is the best world with which you could bother to come up.
Believers actually worship a god that obviously must have mailed it in!
If it's indeed both omniscient and omnipotent, and this is the world that it created, then the most simple of logic tells us that it certainly, as a god, wasn't all-loving as well.
This very obvious observation proves beyond any doubt, reasonable or otherwise, that religious people are, for whatever reason, cultural or otherwise,
logic deficient. We don't need to be trusting them for leadership.
Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. Samuel Johnson, 1775
Religion....is the opiate of the people. Karl Marx, 1848
Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose. Kris Kristofferson, 1969
You're the one who seems to be struggling with this, not me. "Atheism" has always meant "without belief in God/gods". It's quite simple.
Because how do you measure the likelihood of something when you have NO information of said something?How can you possibly insist it is impossible for someone to "believe" it is more likely that there are no gods than that there is at least one????
Sure anyone can believe that it's more likely that God/gods doesn't exist. But that doesn't make them atheists based on that, does it? That would be more in the realm of agnostic atheism.
Yes I do. People have various opinions/beliefs about God/gods.I personally know dozens of people who "believe" that.
In any case, YOU undoubtedly know dozens of people who "believe" that also.
AGAIN, in order for atheists/agnostics to exist, "God" or "gods" HAVE to be invented BEFORE. If claims that God/gods exist have not been made, then nobody would really be atheists/agnostics, would there?Are you really going to stoop to this kind of bullshit?
You wrote: "How can the term "atheist" in ANY language come BEFORE the term "theist" (or "gods") in ANY language?"
The solid inference is that it cannot happen.
BUT IT DID HAPPEN...and I have cited evidence for it happening.
Then, according to you, you have an ACTIVE BELIEF that Bigfoot doesn't exist.I'd ask him/her if he/she had seen any good movies lately...and get the subject changed.
I believe it is. To me, that's different than lacking belief. It's a pretty razor thin distinction, but in this case, probably an important one. This is the simplest way I can sum this up. First one has to agree on what the definition of 'God' is, for me that's a simple concept, it is an entity that exists outside of the natural world, and that is not subject to laws of the natural world. In other words, 'God' is supernatural. God can ignore the laws of physics, or just change them at a whim.
If I accept that definition, then my position is that there is no evidence that such an entity exists. No event has occurred, no object exists that cannot be explained by science. I do not believe that will ever change. Anything that appears supernatural is just something we can't explain yet because our understanding of the natural world is so incredibly limited.
So at least for me, it is not being 'unable' to believe. It means that I have no reason to believe. The idea of God is redundant, science explains everything eventually. God is simply man indulging his ego. I don't find it necessary or important. I don't spend a lot of time talking about it or even thinking about it. So I lack belief. That's it.
AProudLefty (04-21-2021)
PostmodernProphet (04-21-2021)
BULLSHIT!
For most of its existence in English...it meant the denial of the existence of gods. If you were to look up "atheist" in any dictionary printed before 1950...the number one definition would be a variation on "a person who denies the existence of any gods."
The notion that it means "without a belief in gods"...is relatively new...and is gratuitous for the atheist position that they lack beliefs. Most HAVE BELIEFS.
Many atheists simply do "measure the likelihood." In fact, many insist that it is a result of applying logic and science to the issue. But...there is absolutely no way anyone can come to "there are no gods" or "it is more likely that there are no gods than that there is at least one" using logic, science, math or anything else.Because how do you measure the likelihood of something when you have NO information of said something?
It is BELIEF, pure and simply...by which I mean...a blind guess.
That is what theists do...and, unfortunately, that is what most atheists do also.
That is playing games with descriptors. That is why I try to stay away from them. Rather than insisting that I am agnostic, I say:Sure anyone can believe that it's more likely that God/gods doesn't exist. But that doesn't make them atheists based on that, does it? That would be more in the realm of agnostic atheism.
I do not know if any gods exist or not;
I see no reason to suspect gods CANNOT EXIST...that the existence of gods is impossible;
I see no reason to suspect that gods MUST EXIST...that gods are needed to explain existence;
I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess in either direction...
...so I don't.
Then why did you say it is impossible?Yes I do. People have various opinions/beliefs about God/gods.
I AM SAYING THAT THE WORDS "ATHEIST/ATHEISM" CAME INTO THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE BEFORE THE WORDS "THEIST/THEISM."AGAIN, in order for atheists/agnostics to exist, "God" or "gods" HAVE to be invented BEFORE. If claims that God/gods exist have not been made, then nobody would really be atheists/agnostics, would there?
If you disagree with that...tell me why. We can discuss it.
What the hell are you talking about?Then, according to you, you have an ACTIVE BELIEF that Bigfoot doesn't exist.
I have NO ACTIVE BELIEFS AT ALL.
I make guesses, make estimates, have opinions, speculate...and that sort of thing. But when I do, I call them guesses, estimates, opinions, and speculations. I never disguise them using the words "believe" or "belief."
ON HIS WORST DAY, JOE BIDEN IS A BETTER PRESIDENT THAN TRUMP WAS ON HIS BEST DAY!
PostmodernProphet (04-21-2021)
Uh that's exactly what "agnostic atheist" means!!!!
I said it's impossible to evaluate the probability of a thing with NO information. People can say or explain why they think it's likely or not likely that Bigfoot exist. But that's what it is, a belief in the probability based on no information.Then why did you say it is impossible?
Already done. It being the first word in English language has no bearing in the discussion.I AM SAYING THAT THE WORDS "ATHEIST/ATHEISM" CAME INTO THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE BEFORE THE WORDS "THEIST/THEISM."
If you disagree with that...tell me why. We can discuss it.
BINGO!!! NOW YOU'RE GETTING IT!!!!I have NO ACTIVE BELIEFS AT ALL.
ANOTHER BINGO!I make guesses, make estimates, have opinions, speculate...and that sort of thing. But when I do, I call them guesses, estimates, opinions, and speculations. I never disguise them using the words "believe" or "belief."
"Do you believe that aliens exist?" "No."
"Do you believe that aliens don't exist?" "No."
Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. Samuel Johnson, 1775
Religion....is the opiate of the people. Karl Marx, 1848
Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose. Kris Kristofferson, 1969
AProudLefty (04-21-2021), Frank Apisa (04-21-2021)
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