Page 1 of 8 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 120

Thread: Chauvin Trial Closing Arguments

  1. #1 | Top
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    55,018
    Thanks
    15,249
    Thanked 19,001 Times in 13,040 Posts
    Groans
    307
    Groaned 1,147 Times in 1,092 Posts

    Default Chauvin Trial Closing Arguments

    I took the day off work today due to a mild fever from my second COVID vaccination and have been watching the closing arguments in the Derek Chauvin trial.

    My thoughts so far:

    Chauvin is up against three charges. Second degree murder, Third degree murder and Second degree manslaughter. I will post links to their definitions by the State of Minnesota below.

    The States closing argument was pretty much a straightforward summation of the case made by the State, during trial, which relied heavily on Floyd’s continuous pleas that he could not breath and the 9:24 in which officer Chauvin leaned on his neck and how this violated Minneapolis police policies. Nothing earth shattering.

    The defense on the other hand was on fire and earned their pay today.

    The defense attorney eviscerated the States arguments for Second and Third degree murder.

    On the second degree murder count of which part of is the victim must have been assaulted. The evidence provided by the defense that the situation clearly met the policy standards for use of force by a reasonable police officer. With that being the case Chauvin, as a police officer, cannot be charged or guilty of assault.

    That takes Second degree murder off the books as without the assault aspect Chauvin doesn’t qualify for that specific charge as no intent by Chauvin to commit a felony occurred. That is to say reasonable doubt has been established for the second degree murder charge.

    A similar fate occurred with the third degree murder charge of which a qualifying aspect is Chauvin would have had to act with reckless disregard for human life. The fact that Chauvin attempted to deescalate Floyd’s restraint when his fellow officers requested using leg restraints and were countermanded by Chauvin. Also while restraining Floyd on the ground the officers, with Chauvin’s input, called EMT’s for assistance twice. Those occurances directly contradict a reckless disregard for human life.

    In other words that provides significant reasonable doubt for third degree murder.

    However the defense arguments against manslaughter I found weak. Their arguments were based largely on the other possible contributing factors to Floyd’s death, such as drug use and medical history in addition to Chauvin’s reactions to the crowd. Their argument was that the contributing factors of Floyd’s death mitigate Chauvin’s actions as a cascade of biological factors resulted in Floyd’s death. I found that a particularly weak argument as that is true about any death which isn’t a result of extreme trauma.

    The arguments that Floyd’s actions were in part responsible by the actions of the crowd was also a weak argument as the crowd consisted of approximately 7 people who though vociferous were not particularly aggressive.

    The Police vest cameras also clearly show that when Floyd became unconscious one of his fellow officers observed that Floyd was in hypoxic shock and Chauvin concurred with the officer yet continued to kneel on Floyd’s neck.

    It is at this point that, IHMO, that Chauvin’s action ceased to be the reasonable actions of a police officer and crossed the boundaries of the law. At this point an unreasonable risk for the loss of Floyd’s risk. That is culpable negligence had occurred. I do not think that the arguments by the defense provide reasonable doubt. Chauvin’s own recognition that Floyd was in hypoxic shock demonstrates he understood clearly the risk involved in continuing to keep kneeling on Floyd’s neck. I think the evidence shows that Floyd died because of Chauvin kneeling on his neck and Chauvin was aware of that risk but continued to do so. I don’t believe his defense provided a reasonable argument for reasonable doubt on second degree manslaughter.

    So qualifying my opinions based on the facts provided and yet understanding that the jury may act differently, I think Chauvin will be convicted of manslaughter but found not guilty of second or third degree murder.


    https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.19

    https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.195

    https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.205
    Last edited by Mott the Hoople; 04-19-2021 at 02:55 PM.
    You're Never Alone With A Schizophrenic!

  2. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Mott the Hoople For This Post:

    Cypress (04-19-2021), Guno צְבִי (04-19-2021), Sirthinksalot (04-20-2021), ThatOwlWoman (04-19-2021), Trump's Brain (04-19-2021)

  3. #2 | Top
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Posts
    48,970
    Thanks
    12,111
    Thanked 14,174 Times in 10,392 Posts
    Groans
    45
    Groaned 4,876 Times in 4,194 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mott the Hoople View Post
    I took the day off work today due to a mild fever from my second COVID vaccination and have been watching the closing arguments in the Derek Chauvin trial.

    My thoughts so far:

    Chauvin is up against three charges. Second degree murder, Third degree murder and Second degree manslaughter. I will post links to their definitions by the State of Minnesota below.

    The States closing argument was pretty much a straightforward summation of the case made by the State, during trial, which relied heavily on Floyd’s continuous pleas that he could not breath and the 9:24 in which officer Chauvin leaned on his neck and how this violated Minneapolis police policies. Nothing earth shattering.

    The defense on the other hand was on fire and earned their pay today.

    The defense attorney eviscerated the States arguments for Second and Third degree murder.

    On the second degree murder count of which part of is the victim must have been assaulted. The evidence provided by the defense that the situation clearly met the policy standards for use of force by a reasonable police officer. With that being the case Chauvin, as a police officer, cannot be charged or guilty of assault.

    That takes Second degree murder off the books as without the assault aspect Chauvin doesn’t qualify for that specific charge as no intent by Chauvin to commit a felony occurred. That is to say reasonable doubt has been established for the second degree murder charge.

    A similar fate occurred with the third degree murder charge of which a qualifying aspect is Chauvin would have had to act with reckless disregard for human life. The fact that Chauvin attempted to deescalate Floyd’s restraint when his fellow officers requested using leg restraints and were countermanded by Chauvin. Also while restraining Floyd on the ground the officers, with Chauvin’s input, called EMT’s for assistance twice. Those occurances directly contradict a reckless disregard for human life.

    In other words that provides significant reasonable doubt for third degree murder.

    However the defense arguments against manslaughter I found weak. Their arguments were based largely on the other possible contributing factors to Floyd’s death, such as drug use and medical history in addition to Chauvin’s reactions to the crowd. Their argument was that the contributing factors of Floyd’s death mitigate Chauvin’s actions as a cascade of biological factors resulted in Floyd’s death. I found that a particularly weak argument as that is true about any death which isn’t a result of extreme trauma.

    The arguments that Floyd’s actions were in part responsible by the actions of the crowd was also a weak argument as the crowd consisted of approximately 7 people who though vociferous were not particularly aggressive.

    The Police vest cameras also clearly show that when Floyd became unconscious one of his fellow officers observed that Floyd was in hypoxic shock and Chauvin concurred with the officer yet continued to kneel on Floyd’s neck.

    It is at this point that, IHMO, that Chauvin’s action ceased to be the reasonable actions of a police officer and crossed the boundaries of the law. At this point an unreasonable risk for the loss of Floyd’s risk. That is culpable negligence had occurred. I do not think that the arguments by the defense provide reasonable doubt. Chauvin’s own recognition that Floyd was in hypoxic shock demonstrates he understood clearly the risk involved in continuing to keep kneeling on Floyd’s neck. I think the evidence shows that Floyd died because of Chauvin kneeling on his neck and was aware of that risk but continued to do so. I don’t believe his defense provided a reasonable argument for reasonable doubt.

    So qualifying my opinions based on the facts provided and yet understanding that the jury may act differently, I think Chauvin will be convicted of manslaughter but found not guilty of second or third degree murder.


    https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.19

    https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.195

    https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.205
    A thoughtful analysis.

    However, even if Chauvin initially followed proper policy standards for use of force, at some point he exceeded that standard and that’s where the excessive force becomes an assault. That’s my take, however I did not watch closing arguments

  4. The Following User Groans At domer76 For This Awful Post:

    cancel2 2022 (04-19-2021)

  5. #3 | Top
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Location
    margaritaville
    Posts
    29,127
    Thanks
    12,874
    Thanked 14,454 Times in 9,909 Posts
    Groans
    23
    Groaned 867 Times in 825 Posts

    Default

    Manslaughter.

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to Stone For This Post:

    Life is Golden (04-19-2021)

  7. #4 | Top
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    11,056
    Thanks
    4,929
    Thanked 3,685 Times in 2,733 Posts
    Groans
    6
    Groaned 707 Times in 647 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mott the Hoople View Post
    I took the day off work today due to a mild fever from my second COVID vaccination and have been watching the closing arguments in the Derek Chauvin trial.

    My thoughts so far:

    Chauvin is up against three charges. Second degree murder, Third degree murder and Second degree manslaughter. I will post links to their definitions by the State of Minnesota below.

    The States closing argument was pretty much a straightforward summation of the case made by the State, during trial, which relied heavily on Floyd’s continuous pleas that he could not breath and the 9:24 in which officer Chauvin leaned on his neck and how this violated Minneapolis police policies. Nothing earth shattering.

    The defense on the other hand was on fire and earned their pay today.

    The defense attorney eviscerated the States arguments for Second and Third degree murder.

    On the second degree murder count of which part of is the victim must have been assaulted. The evidence provided by the defense that the situation clearly met the policy standards for use of force by a reasonable police officer. With that being the case Chauvin, as a police officer, cannot be charged or guilty of assault.

    That takes Second degree murder off the books as without the assault aspect Chauvin doesn’t qualify for that specific charge as no intent by Chauvin to commit a felony occurred. That is to say reasonable doubt has been established for the second degree murder charge.

    A similar fate occurred with the third degree murder charge of which a qualifying aspect is Chauvin would have had to act with reckless disregard for human life. The fact that Chauvin attempted to deescalate Floyd’s restraint when his fellow officers requested using leg restraints and were countermanded by Chauvin. Also while restraining Floyd on the ground the officers, with Chauvin’s input, called EMT’s for assistance twice. Those occurances directly contradict a reckless disregard for human life.

    In other words that provides significant reasonable doubt for third degree murder.

    However the defense arguments against manslaughter I found weak. Their arguments were based largely on the other possible contributing factors to Floyd’s death, such as drug use and medical history in addition to Chauvin’s reactions to the crowd. Their argument was that the contributing factors of Floyd’s death mitigate Chauvin’s actions as a cascade of biological factors resulted in Floyd’s death. I found that a particularly weak argument as that is true about any death which isn’t a result of extreme trauma.

    The arguments that Floyd’s actions were in part responsible by the actions of the crowd was also a weak argument as the crowd consisted of approximately 7 people who though vociferous were not particularly aggressive.

    The Police vest cameras also clearly show that when Floyd became unconscious one of his fellow officers observed that Floyd was in hypoxic shock and Chauvin concurred with the officer yet continued to kneel on Floyd’s neck.

    It is at this point that, IHMO, that Chauvin’s action ceased to be the reasonable actions of a police officer and crossed the boundaries of the law. At this point an unreasonable risk for the loss of Floyd’s risk. That is culpable negligence had occurred. I do not think that the arguments by the defense provide reasonable doubt. Chauvin’s own recognition that Floyd was in hypoxic shock demonstrates he understood clearly the risk involved in continuing to keep kneeling on Floyd’s neck. I think the evidence shows that Floyd died because of Chauvin kneeling on his neck and Chauvin was aware of that risk but continued to do so. I don’t believe his defense provided a reasonable argument for reasonable doubt on second degree manslaughter.

    So qualifying my opinions based on the facts provided and yet understanding that the jury may act differently, I think Chauvin will be convicted of manslaughter but found not guilty of second or third degree murder.


    https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.19

    https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.195

    https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.205
    THEY TRIED TO BLAME MAXINE WATERS OF INCITING VIOLENCE


    IT DIDNT WORK.

    THE JUDGE PLAYED RIGHT INO THE MAXINE bs HE SHOULD BE DISBARED.

  8. The Following User Groans At TTQ64 For This Awful Post:

    cancel2 2022 (04-19-2021)

  9. #5 | Top
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Location
    margaritaville
    Posts
    29,127
    Thanks
    12,874
    Thanked 14,454 Times in 9,909 Posts
    Groans
    23
    Groaned 867 Times in 825 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TTQ64 View Post
    THEY TRIED TO BLAME MAXINE WATERS OF INCITING VIOLENCE


    IT DIDNT WORK.

    THE JUDGE PLAYED RIGHT INO THE MAXINE bs HE SHOULD BE DISBARED.
    GED......Work on it,..... soon. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.


  10. #6 | Top
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    41,960
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked 22,041 Times in 13,848 Posts
    Groans
    0
    Groaned 3,042 Times in 2,838 Posts

    Default

    Seemingly at least Manslaughter at this point, ten years, he'll be out in five, but who knows what juries do, we've seen enough surprises in the past

  11. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to archives For This Post:

    evince (04-19-2021), Guno צְבִי (04-19-2021), Mott the Hoople (04-19-2021), ThatOwlWoman (04-19-2021)

  12. #7 | Top
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Dirty South
    Posts
    63,304
    Thanks
    6,234
    Thanked 13,406 Times in 10,036 Posts
    Groans
    2
    Groaned 2,947 Times in 2,728 Posts

    Default

    It's going to be a hung jury and mistrial on all charges because there will be 1 lone juror holdout.
    When I die, turn me into a brick and use me to cave in the skull of a fascist


  13. #8 | Top
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Posts
    20,423
    Thanks
    1,794
    Thanked 11,073 Times in 6,783 Posts
    Groans
    888
    Groaned 1,829 Times in 1,694 Posts

    Default

    Thanks for the breakdown - I haven't had a chance to watch any of it.

    I wonder how the country will react if it goes that way.

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to BartenderElite For This Post:

    Guno צְבִי (04-19-2021)

  15. #9 | Top
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Location
    margaritaville
    Posts
    29,127
    Thanks
    12,874
    Thanked 14,454 Times in 9,909 Posts
    Groans
    23
    Groaned 867 Times in 825 Posts

    Default

    Now leaning towards Hung jury. Heard a couple interesting things....

  16. #10 | Top
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    134,846
    Thanks
    13,245
    Thanked 40,785 Times in 32,151 Posts
    Groans
    3,661
    Groaned 2,865 Times in 2,752 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3

    Default

    in summary, it doesn't matter what anyone here believes.....it only matters what the jury believes......
    Isaiah 6:5
    “Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty.”

  17. The Following User Says Thank You to PostmodernProphet For This Post:

    Mott the Hoople (04-19-2021)

  18. #11 | Top
    Join Date
    Nov 2020
    Posts
    53,158
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 15,989 Times in 11,516 Posts
    Groans
    873
    Groaned 2,459 Times in 2,200 Posts

    Default

    Guilty, second degree manslaughter. Chauvin was reckless.

  19. #12 | Top
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Location
    margaritaville
    Posts
    29,127
    Thanks
    12,874
    Thanked 14,454 Times in 9,909 Posts
    Groans
    23
    Groaned 867 Times in 825 Posts

    Default

    Hearing rumors that a massive block party is being planned at Kyle Rittenhouse's place with Chauvin as the guest of honor. They plan on both wearing FREE AS FUCK T shirts,.....bringing in Motley Crue to play the gig. Good times........

  20. #13 | Top
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Posts
    20,423
    Thanks
    1,794
    Thanked 11,073 Times in 6,783 Posts
    Groans
    888
    Groaned 1,829 Times in 1,694 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stone View Post
    Hearing rumors that a massive block party is been planned at Kyle Rittenhouse's place with Chauvin as the guest of honor. They plan on both wearing FREE AS FUCK T shirts,.....bringing in Motley Crue to play the gig. Good times........
    Do you think he should be acquitted?

  21. #14 | Top
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    55,018
    Thanks
    15,249
    Thanked 19,001 Times in 13,040 Posts
    Groans
    307
    Groaned 1,147 Times in 1,092 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by domer76 View Post
    A thoughtful analysis.

    However, even if Chauvin initially followed proper policy standards for use of force, at some point he exceeded that standard and that’s where the excessive force becomes an assault. That’s my take, however I did not watch closing arguments
    Keep in mind I’m basing my analysis on Minnesota law as written. I don’t hold a JD so I’m not in a position to credibly interpret Minnesota law. As written in Minnesota law a reasonable police officer when engaging a suspect resisting arrest is permitted use of force other then use of a lethal weapon. So without interpreting that means that any use of force used by a reasonable police officer, excluding lethal weapons, would be permitted and could not be legally classified as felony assault.

    A member of the board who does hold a JD could probably shed more light upon that distinction.
    You're Never Alone With A Schizophrenic!

  22. #15 | Top
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Location
    margaritaville
    Posts
    29,127
    Thanks
    12,874
    Thanked 14,454 Times in 9,909 Posts
    Groans
    23
    Groaned 867 Times in 825 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BartenderElite View Post
    Do you think he should be acquitted?
    Doesnt really matter to me one way or another.

Similar Threads

  1. Derek Chauvin Trial
    By Jack in forum Current Events Forum
    Replies: 96
    Last Post: 04-20-2021, 06:12 PM
  2. Powerful closing argument by prosecutor of Chauvin
    By BidenPresident in forum Current Events Forum
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 04-19-2021, 10:50 AM
  3. The Chauvin show trial in the news
    By Legion in forum Current Events Forum
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-29-2021, 10:09 PM
  4. Why do Republicans keep interfering in the Closing Arguments?
    By BidenPresident in forum Current Events Forum
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 02-13-2021, 02:35 PM
  5. The President Makes His Closing Arguments
    By Bourbon in forum Current Events Forum
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 10-20-2020, 01:27 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Rules

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •