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Thread: Critique of the Communist Manifesto

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    Quote Originally Posted by goat View Post
    Peterson backed out of his debate with Richard Wolff because he knew he would be exposed as a wannabe intellectual. The Communist Manifesto is too short to fully understand Marx, so Peterson should've attempted to read Capital but that would be too difficult for him. All one has to do is accept the fact that the capitalist system is about to go bankrupt for the 5th time in 30 years.

    The Mondragon Corporation is proof that Marxism works, it's not affected by the constant global economic collapse that most western countries are forced to deal with. The US and UK have been unable to quash the Basque like they did with Cuba, Yugoslavia, and Venezuela. Ironically, the US and UK economy have been hollowed out by capitalism and only kept buoyant with debt.

    Peterson claims that the poor are getting rich because of capitalism. He failed to mention that the US military is stealing indigenous farmland so Sony can go in and build a factory there for the cheap labor. Capitalism has led us to neo-feudalism, millennials in the US can't afford to buy a house because their college debt made them slaves to working at the mall or a fastfood chain.
    Is that so?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    Is that so?
    Yes it is so. I expected a response that would challenge my assertion but I don't mind talking to myself so here we go.

    Poor people are not getting rich off capitalism.
    Millennials don't have the same opportunity or fiscal security as their parents did.
    The US and UK quash democratically elected socialist governments and install hand picked dictators. This is well documented.
    Wall Street is about to crash the global economy for the 5th time in 30 years.
    The federal reserve is insolvent.
    Peterson should critique Capital but he won't because Marxism is pro-worker.

    I can go on and on but it would be nice if someone tried to debunk these facts first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gin Saké View Post
    It's a political discussion forum. Philosophical discussion often begins with citing the work of someone famous/contemporary, or referencing the news.
    No. It NEVER does. The only real rule of philosophy is that you must present your OWN arguments. You cannot use the arguments of others as your own. All your reasoning must be your OWN.
    Cutting and pasting is NOT philosophy. Using holy links is NOT philosophy. Using the arguments of others in any way is NOT your own reasoning. While stealing someone else's arguments as your own is not against the law, it is the sign of a weak mind. You can't think and reason for yourself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    Indeed.
    No. Philosophy requires the use of your OWN reasoning and presenting your OWN arguments.
    "The atmosphere is among the factors that determines the Earth's atmosphere." --ZenMode
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    Quote Originally Posted by Into the Night View Post
    No. It NEVER does. The only real rule of philosophy is that you must present your OWN arguments. You cannot use the arguments of others as your own. All your reasoning must be your OWN.
    Cutting and pasting is NOT philosophy. Using holy links is NOT philosophy. Using the arguments of others in any way is NOT your own reasoning. While stealing someone else's arguments as your own is not against the law, it is the sign of a weak mind. You can't think and reason for yourself.
    I didn't post this thread, retard. But, most philosophical discussions begin with Aristotle this, or Aquinas that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by goat View Post
    Yes it is so. I expected a response that would challenge my assertion but I don't mind talking to myself so here we go.

    Poor people are not getting rich off capitalism.
    Millennials don't have the same opportunity or fiscal security as their parents did.
    The US and UK quash democratically elected socialist governments and install hand picked dictators. This is well documented.
    Wall Street is about to crash the global economy for the 5th time in 30 years.
    The federal reserve is insolvent.
    Peterson should critique Capital but he won't because Marxism is pro-worker.

    I can go on and on but it would be nice if someone tried to debunk these facts first.
    Okay. It seems obvious to me that you don't understand what capitalism is. It is simply the creation of wealth by voluntary effort. It does not require any government to even exist for capitalism to exist. Anyone can play the game. All you need is initiative and drive. Absolutely NOTHING prevents a poor person from becoming rich except his own initiative and drive. You could even say that such almost chooses to be poor.

    Money is not wealth. It is only a trade medium to conduct transactions. It's more convenient than barter.

    So if money is not wealth, what is? It is the products and services that people provide to others. It is literally service to others. It is doing something or providing something to someone else that they are willing to pay for. What you provide is voluntarily paid for. If someone doesn't want to pay for your product or service, there is little point in providing it, is there? It is the public saying that your product or service has little value. It is not wanted.

    In every market there is a phenomenon called price discovery. This is the rather difficult task of figuring out how much people are willing to pay for your product or service. You of course want people to pay as much as possible. People wanting your product or service want to pay as little as possible. Eventually you come together upon an agreed upon price. If that price is enough to satisfy you and your client, the transaction takes place.

    The Federal Reserve is not capitalism. It is a form of socialism called fascism (government control of a market). The market in this case is the price of money. It is literally price controls on money itself...or the cost of borrowing it. As such, the Fed is constantly behind the market, and indeed mucks it up so badly that the money and loan markets are totally distorted. The result inevitably is crash after crash. It is the Fed that causes the crashes. It prints money whenever the government wants to cash a rubber check. If money is being printed faster than the wealth being created in the country, you have inflation. If it prints less, you have deflation. It always acts after the fact, so it's constantly wrong.

    Socialism is not a government. Neither is capitalism. These are models of economics. While capitalism is creation of wealth, socialism is theft of wealth. It literally cannot exist without capitalism to steal from. Socialism takes two major forms: fascism, which is government control of markets, and communism, which is government ownership of markets.

    Wall Street is not capitalism. It is a mixture. Much of it is pure speculation. It is gambling. Like any gambler, they often lose. The casino they use is the stock market and other financial instruments.

    The United States was never a democracy. Neither was the UK. The UK has always been a monarchy or an oligarchy. The US was organized as a federated republic. That means a government by constitution. Democracies have no constitutions. There are currently no democracies anywhere in the world.
    As for dictators, who are you suggesting is a dictator? The Constitution of the United States is the highest law of the land, and even the President and his office is defined and it's authority and power comes from that document. That's what constitutions do. They declare and define a government and give it specific authorities and powers. That government has NO authorities and powers beyond that. Any republic that goes beyond it's specifically designated authority and power is no longer a republic. It becomes an oligarchy or dictatorship.

    Do oligarchies exist in the United States? Sure. Examples are the EPA, the Fed, the Education department, the Energy department, the Agriculture department, and many others. The Constitution of the United States never authorized the creation of these agencies nor empowered Congress nor the President to do so. Despite this, those that honor and support the Constitution of the United States exist in the federal government, even today (at least, what's left of it).

    The States created the Constitution of the United States. They own it. Only they can change it. Only they can interpret it. Only they can choose to destroy it and thus dissolve the federal government that it creates and defines.

    Does socialism exist in the United States? Sure. The fascism of the Fed is one example. The fascism of the EPA, the Education department, the BATF, etc. are others. Is Trump fascist? No. He is largely conservative. He supports the Constitution. He has made mistakes to be sure, but he is largely conservative. He wants to conserve and protect the republic of the United States.
    Is Biden fascist? Yes. Quite definitely. He's even a communist over certain aspects. He does not recognize the Constitution of the United States nor the constitution of any State. Neither do the Democrats in general. It is Democrats that want to limit free speech, freedom of religion, the right to bear arms, the right to trial by jury, and horn in on the sovereignty of the States.

    You are right about the Fed. It is insolvent. It is broke. Its balance sheet is so out of what they have to print trillions for the government just to keep the whole drunken party barge floating at all. It cannot last. People are already starting to look for another currency. No government can stop that.

    Right now the United States has capitalism, fascism, and communism all existing at the same time. This is true in most any nation you want to name. To implement socialism, which is theft of wealth, oligarchies and dictatorships are necessary because people don't like their wealth stolen.

    Capitalism is the only system that creates wealth. It creates it out a few raw materials, and the voluntary efforts of those providing their services and products to their fellow man. Anyone can play. Rich and poor alike. It is the best chance the poor have to lift themselves out of poverty and to make something of themselves. Rags to riches stories abound. They are the essence of capitalism.


    This post is necessarily long because you raised so many points to address, and I am taking the time to present my own reasoning and arguments, not copy and pasting from others. This IS philosophy. That is what philosophy is all about.
    "The atmosphere is among the factors that determines the Earth's atmosphere." --ZenMode
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    "Abortion is not a moral issue. " --BidenPresident
    "Propaganda can also be factual." --Flash
    "Even after being vaccinated, you shed virus particles." --Jerome
    "no slavery is forcing another into labor" -archives
    "Evs are much safer from fires" -- Nordberg
    "Abortion has killed no one." -- LurchAddams

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gin Saké View Post
    I didn't post this thread, retard. But, most philosophical discussions begin with Aristotle this, or Aquinas that.
    No, they don't. Philosophy is simply presenting your OWN arguments and your OWN reasoning. It is nothing else. Even quoting Aristotle and using his arguments is NOT philosophy.
    "The atmosphere is among the factors that determines the Earth's atmosphere." --ZenMode
    "Donald has failed in almost every endeavor he has attempted. " --floridafan
    "Abortion is not a moral issue. " --BidenPresident
    "Propaganda can also be factual." --Flash
    "Even after being vaccinated, you shed virus particles." --Jerome
    "no slavery is forcing another into labor" -archives
    "Evs are much safer from fires" -- Nordberg
    "Abortion has killed no one." -- LurchAddams

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guille View Post
    Couldn't put it in your own words eh?
    If this comment is to me, yes, I could put in in my own words.
    Last edited by Drummie123; 04-23-2021 at 03:38 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Into the Night View Post
    Okay. It seems obvious to me that you don't understand what capitalism is. It is simply the creation of wealth by voluntary effort. It does not require any government to even exist for capitalism to exist. Anyone can play the game. All you need is initiative and drive. Absolutely NOTHING prevents a poor person from becoming rich except his own initiative and drive. You could even say that such almost chooses to be poor.

    Money is not wealth. It is only a trade medium to conduct transactions. It's more convenient than barter.

    So if money is not wealth, what is? It is the products and services that people provide to others. It is literally service to others. It is doing something or providing something to someone else that they are willing to pay for. What you provide is voluntarily paid for. If someone doesn't want to pay for your product or service, there is little point in providing it, is there? It is the public saying that your product or service has little value. It is not wanted.

    In every market there is a phenomenon called price discovery. This is the rather difficult task of figuring out how much people are willing to pay for your product or service. You of course want people to pay as much as possible. People wanting your product or service want to pay as little as possible. Eventually you come together upon an agreed upon price. If that price is enough to satisfy you and your client, the transaction takes place.

    The Federal Reserve is not capitalism. It is a form of socialism called fascism (government control of a market). The market in this case is the price of money. It is literally price controls on money itself...or the cost of borrowing it. As such, the Fed is constantly behind the market, and indeed mucks it up so badly that the money and loan markets are totally distorted. The result inevitably is crash after crash. It is the Fed that causes the crashes. It prints money whenever the government wants to cash a rubber check. If money is being printed faster than the wealth being created in the country, you have inflation. If it prints less, you have deflation. It always acts after the fact, so it's constantly wrong.

    Socialism is not a government. Neither is capitalism. These are models of economics. While capitalism is creation of wealth, socialism is theft of wealth. It literally cannot exist without capitalism to steal from. Socialism takes two major forms: fascism, which is government control of markets, and communism, which is government ownership of markets.

    Wall Street is not capitalism. It is a mixture. Much of it is pure speculation. It is gambling. Like any gambler, they often lose. The casino they use is the stock market and other financial instruments.

    The United States was never a democracy. Neither was the UK. The UK has always been a monarchy or an oligarchy. The US was organized as a federated republic. That means a government by constitution. Democracies have no constitutions. There are currently no democracies anywhere in the world.
    As for dictators, who are you suggesting is a dictator? The Constitution of the United States is the highest law of the land, and even the President and his office is defined and it's authority and power comes from that document. That's what constitutions do. They declare and define a government and give it specific authorities and powers. That government has NO authorities and powers beyond that. Any republic that goes beyond it's specifically designated authority and power is no longer a republic. It becomes an oligarchy or dictatorship.

    Do oligarchies exist in the United States? Sure. Examples are the EPA, the Fed, the Education department, the Energy department, the Agriculture department, and many others. The Constitution of the United States never authorized the creation of these agencies nor empowered Congress nor the President to do so. Despite this, those that honor and support the Constitution of the United States exist in the federal government, even today (at least, what's left of it).

    The States created the Constitution of the United States. They own it. Only they can change it. Only they can interpret it. Only they can choose to destroy it and thus dissolve the federal government that it creates and defines.

    Does socialism exist in the United States? Sure. The fascism of the Fed is one example. The fascism of the EPA, the Education department, the BATF, etc. are others. Is Trump fascist? No. He is largely conservative. He supports the Constitution. He has made mistakes to be sure, but he is largely conservative. He wants to conserve and protect the republic of the United States.
    Is Biden fascist? Yes. Quite definitely. He's even a communist over certain aspects. He does not recognize the Constitution of the United States nor the constitution of any State. Neither do the Democrats in general. It is Democrats that want to limit free speech, freedom of religion, the right to bear arms, the right to trial by jury, and horn in on the sovereignty of the States.

    You are right about the Fed. It is insolvent. It is broke. Its balance sheet is so out of what they have to print trillions for the government just to keep the whole drunken party barge floating at all. It cannot last. People are already starting to look for another currency. No government can stop that.

    Right now the United States has capitalism, fascism, and communism all existing at the same time. This is true in most any nation you want to name. To implement socialism, which is theft of wealth, oligarchies and dictatorships are necessary because people don't like their wealth stolen.

    Capitalism is the only system that creates wealth. It creates it out a few raw materials, and the voluntary efforts of those providing their services and products to their fellow man. Anyone can play. Rich and poor alike. It is the best chance the poor have to lift themselves out of poverty and to make something of themselves. Rags to riches stories abound. They are the essence of capitalism.


    This post is necessarily long because you raised so many points to address, and I am taking the time to present my own reasoning and arguments, not copy and pasting from others. This IS philosophy. That is what philosophy is all about.
    I don't know where to start so let's try this.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    From Investopedia
    By Adam Hayes

    Dutch Tulip Bulb Market Bubble of the 1600s
    At the height of the market, the rarest tulip bulbs traded for as much as six times the average person's annual salary. That means that the best of tulips cost upwards of $750,000 in today's money (but with many bulbs trading in the $50,000 - $150,000 range).

    People began buying tulips with leverage - using margined derivatives contracts to buy more than they could afford. But as quickly as it began, confidence was dashed. By the end of the year 1637, prices began to fall and never looked back.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    You see where I'm going with this? 400 years of bubble and bust. You didn't have to know how to grow a tulip to make money. All the work was done by peasant servants who weren't properly compensated for their production. That's your theft of wealth right here. Owning ones production is the basis of Marxism. The workers producing the tulips should get a fair share of the profits. That would allow workers to be part and help stabilize the economy. Right now 75% of local money is funneled to Wall Street.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummie123 View Post
    If this comment is to me.
    It wasn't to you, it was to Legion so calm the fuck down and realize I didn't read beyond your first sentence.
    Don't be afraid to see what you see

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    Quote Originally Posted by goat View Post
    Yes it is so. I expected a response that would challenge my assertion but I don't mind talking to myself so here we go.

    Poor people are not getting rich off capitalism.
    Millennials don't have the same opportunity or fiscal security as their parents did.
    The US and UK quash democratically elected socialist governments and install hand picked dictators. This is well documented.
    Wall Street is about to crash the global economy for the 5th time in 30 years.
    The federal reserve is insolvent.
    Peterson should critique Capital but he won't because Marxism is pro-worker.

    I can go on and on but it would be nice if someone tried to debunk these facts first.
    The people are always PROMISED that Socialism is the answer and when the people vote in a Socialist Government, after the initial blush of victory wears off they are soon disappointed when they discover that Socialism is a cruel hoax and they are left worse off than they were before they were duped into voting it in.

    Tell me how roasted dog tastes.

    Ami Horowitz: What’s wrong with socialism?



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    Into the Night (04-23-2021)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummie123 View Post
    The people are always PROMISED that Socialism is the answer and when the people vote in a Socialist Government, after the initial blush of victory wears off they are soon disappointed when they discover that Socialism is a cruel hoax and they are left worse off than they were before they were duped into voting it in.

    Tell me how roasted dog tastes.

    Ami Horowitz: What’s wrong with socialism?
    Any system can be corrupted by politician and oligarchs. If the CIA stayed out of socialist countries, we'd see a lot more success in Latin America and Europe. We were told that Greece, Spain, and Italy went bankrupt because the workers are lazy and get too much of a pension. I can take a quick dive down that rabbit hole and post my findings here anytime I want.

    I can back up my claim of 60 million unemployed, but let's say the economists are wrong and it's only 50 million or 40 million, those jobs are not coming back. We all know the next Wall Street crash is coming within the next 4 year but it may happen a lot sooner than that. We also know that a lot of Americans can't pay for their housing, utilities, or food.

    When people fill the streets hungry and angry, will our militarized police brutalize and murder the people they are paid to serve and protect?

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    Quote Originally Posted by goat View Post
    Any system can be corrupted by politician and oligarchs. If the CIA stayed out of socialist countries, we'd see a lot more success in Latin America and Europe. We were told that Greece, Spain, and Italy went bankrupt because the workers are lazy and get too much of a pension. I can take a quick dive down that rabbit hole and post my findings here anytime I want.

    I can back up my claim of 60 million unemployed, but let's say the economists are wrong and it's only 50 million or 40 million, those jobs are not coming back. We all know the next Wall Street crash is coming within the next 4 year but it may happen a lot sooner than that. We also know that a lot of Americans can't pay for their housing, utilities, or food.

    When people fill the streets hungry and angry, will our militarized police brutalize and murder the people they are paid to serve and protect?

    How's Socialism Doing in Venezuela?





    PragerU
    2.89M subscribers

    Venezuela is falling apart. Its economy? Ruined. Its people? Hungry. Its government? Corrupt. What happened? In a word, socialism. Debbie D'Souza, a native Venezuelan and political activist, explains.

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    Quote Originally Posted by goat View Post
    I don't know where to start so let's try this.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    From Investopedia
    By Adam Hayes

    Dutch Tulip Bulb Market Bubble of the 1600s
    At the height of the market, the rarest tulip bulbs traded for as much as six times the average person's annual salary. That means that the best of tulips cost upwards of $750,000 in today's money (but with many bulbs trading in the $50,000 - $150,000 range).

    People began buying tulips with leverage - using margined derivatives contracts to buy more than they could afford. But as quickly as it began, confidence was dashed. By the end of the year 1637, prices began to fall and never looked back.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    You see where I'm going with this? 400 years of bubble and bust. You didn't have to know how to grow a tulip to make money. All the work was done by peasant servants who weren't properly compensated for their production. That's your theft of wealth right here. Owning ones production is the basis of Marxism. The workers producing the tulips should get a fair share of the profits. That would allow workers to be part and help stabilize the economy. Right now 75% of local money is funneled to Wall Street.
    The reason you don't where to start is because you are still considering a worker a slave. They aren't. You apparently never read my post. Go back and read it.

    Workers have a price for their services just like anything else. Their product is their expertise and willingness to do a job that someone else is willing to pay for. That's capitalism.
    That worker can leave anytime they want to.

    If workers are paid little, it's because there is a glut in the market for that worker. If you are untrained, only good for 'minimum wage' jobs, that's not the employers fault, that's yours. Go get yourself a skill that's marketable. Nothing is stopping you but your own initiative to do it.

    You don't need a college degree to make lots of money. You just need to find a service you can provide that people are willing to pay more for. That's what capitalism is all about.

    Wall street is not capitalism. It is gambling. Go back and read my post. Money isn't 'funneled' anywhere. Capitalism is the guy running the pharmacy on the corner. It's the gas station just down the road. It's the oil refineries that sell gasoline to that station. It's the oil drillers that supply oil to the refineries. All of it is capitalism, including the trucks to move it the product from place to place.
    "The atmosphere is among the factors that determines the Earth's atmosphere." --ZenMode
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    "Abortion is not a moral issue. " --BidenPresident
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    "Even after being vaccinated, you shed virus particles." --Jerome
    "no slavery is forcing another into labor" -archives
    "Evs are much safer from fires" -- Nordberg
    "Abortion has killed no one." -- LurchAddams

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    HOW ABOUT KOO-BAH?


    #SocialismSucks

    Everything You've Ever Seen About Cuba Is A Lie





    Turning Point USA
    382K subscribers

    60 years ago, Communists seized power in Cuba and all private business and industry were nationalized and the Cuban people have lived under Socialism ever since.

    Did the theft and redistribution of all wealth and property lead to prosperity and justice for the Cuban people? Many American Leftists would have you believe just that.

    Turning Point USA traveled to Cuba to investigate the true realities of what a generation of full Socialism has done to the once-thriving Cuban population.

    What did we discover? Everything you have ever seen about Cuba is a lie. #SocialismSucks

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