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    Default What's more important?

    Is it more important to work toward freedom or equality?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yakuda View Post
    Is it more important to work toward freedom or equality?
    Can one have true freedom without equality?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle_Eye View Post
    Can one have true freedom without equality?
    I don't see why not. Is there any equality between me and LeBron James? Am I less free if there isn't?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yakuda View Post
    Is it more important to work toward freedom or equality?
    Freedom!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Dillon View Post
    Freedom!
    Amen

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle_Eye View Post
    Can one have true freedom without equality?
    Have you read The Declaration of Independence?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Dillon View Post
    Have you read The Declaration of Independence?
    I'd bet "No". How many times does the word freedom appear in the DOI? I know how many times equality appears! ZERO

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yakuda View Post
    I'd bet "No". How many times does the word freedom appear in the DOI? I know how many times equality appears! ZERO
    Equal is in the 1st or 2nd paragraph.
    "WHEN in the Course of human Events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation.
    We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness—-That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security. Such has been the patient Sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the Necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The History of the present King of Great-Britain is a History of repeated Injuries and Usurpations, all having in direct Object the Establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid World.
    He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public Good.
    He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing Importance, unless suspended in their Operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
    He has refused to pass other Laws for the Accommodation of large Districts of People, unless those People would relinquish the Right of Representation in the Legislature, a Right inestimable to them, and formidable to Tyrants only.
    He has called together Legislative Bodies at Places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the Depository of their public Records, for the sole Purpose of fatiguing them into Compliance with his Measures.
    He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly Firmness his Invasions on the Rights of the People.
    He has refused for a long Time, after such Dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the Dangers of Invasion from without, and Convulsions within.
    He has endeavoured to prevent the Population of these States; for that Purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their Migrations hither, and raising the Conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
    He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.
    He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the Tenure of their Offices, and the Amount and Payment of their Salaries.
    He has erected a Multitude of new Offices, and sent hither Swarms of Officers to harrass our People, and eat out their Substance.
    He has kept among us, in Times of Peace, Standing Armies, without the consent of our Legislatures.
    He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.
    He has combined with others to subject us to a Jurisdiction foreign to our Constitution, and unacknowledged by our Laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
    For quartering large Bodies of Armed Troops among us:
    For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from Punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
    For cutting off our Trade with all Parts of the World:
    For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
    For depriving us, in many Cases, of the Benefits of Trial by Jury:
    For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended Offences:
    For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an arbitrary Government, and enlarging its Boundaries, so as to render it at once an Example and fit Instrument for introducing the same absolute Rule into these Colonies:
    For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
    For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with Power to legislate for us in all Cases whatsoever.
    He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
    He has plundered our Seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our Towns, and destroyed the Lives of our People.
    He is, at this Time, transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the Works of Death, Desolation, and Tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty and Perfidy, scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous Ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized Nation.
    He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the Executioners of their Friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
    He has excited domestic Insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the Inhabitants of our Frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known Rule of Warfare, is an undistinguished Destruction, of all Ages, Sexes and Conditions.
    In every stage of these Oppressions we have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble Terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated Injury. A Prince, whose Character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the Ruler of a free People.
    Nor have we been wanting in Attentions to our British Brethren. We have warned them from Time to Time of Attempts by their Legislature to extend an unwarrantable Jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the Circumstances of our Emigration and Settlement here. We have appealed to their native Justice and Magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the Ties of our common Kindred to disavow these Usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our Connections and Correspondence. They too have been deaf to the Voice of Justice and of Consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the Necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of Mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace, Friends.
    We, therefore, the Representatives of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the World for the Rectitude of our Intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly Publish and Declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be, Free and Independent States; that they are absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political Connection between them and the State of Great-Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm Reliance on the Protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.

    Signed by Order and in Behalf of the Congress,
    JOHN HANCOCK, President."

    https://declaration.fas.harvard.edu/resources/text

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Dillon View Post
    Equal is in the 1st or 2nd paragraph.
    "WHEN in the Course of human Events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation.
    We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness—-That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security. Such has been the patient Sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the Necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The History of the present King of Great-Britain is a History of repeated Injuries and Usurpations, all having in direct Object the Establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid World.
    He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public Good.
    He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing Importance, unless suspended in their Operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
    He has refused to pass other Laws for the Accommodation of large Districts of People, unless those People would relinquish the Right of Representation in the Legislature, a Right inestimable to them, and formidable to Tyrants only.
    He has called together Legislative Bodies at Places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the Depository of their public Records, for the sole Purpose of fatiguing them into Compliance with his Measures.
    He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly Firmness his Invasions on the Rights of the People.
    He has refused for a long Time, after such Dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the Dangers of Invasion from without, and Convulsions within.
    He has endeavoured to prevent the Population of these States; for that Purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their Migrations hither, and raising the Conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
    He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.
    He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the Tenure of their Offices, and the Amount and Payment of their Salaries.
    He has erected a Multitude of new Offices, and sent hither Swarms of Officers to harrass our People, and eat out their Substance.
    He has kept among us, in Times of Peace, Standing Armies, without the consent of our Legislatures.
    He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.
    He has combined with others to subject us to a Jurisdiction foreign to our Constitution, and unacknowledged by our Laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
    For quartering large Bodies of Armed Troops among us:
    For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from Punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
    For cutting off our Trade with all Parts of the World:
    For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
    For depriving us, in many Cases, of the Benefits of Trial by Jury:
    For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended Offences:
    For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an arbitrary Government, and enlarging its Boundaries, so as to render it at once an Example and fit Instrument for introducing the same absolute Rule into these Colonies:
    For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
    For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with Power to legislate for us in all Cases whatsoever.
    He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
    He has plundered our Seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our Towns, and destroyed the Lives of our People.
    He is, at this Time, transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the Works of Death, Desolation, and Tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty and Perfidy, scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous Ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized Nation.
    He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the Executioners of their Friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
    He has excited domestic Insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the Inhabitants of our Frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known Rule of Warfare, is an undistinguished Destruction, of all Ages, Sexes and Conditions.
    In every stage of these Oppressions we have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble Terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated Injury. A Prince, whose Character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the Ruler of a free People.
    Nor have we been wanting in Attentions to our British Brethren. We have warned them from Time to Time of Attempts by their Legislature to extend an unwarrantable Jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the Circumstances of our Emigration and Settlement here. We have appealed to their native Justice and Magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the Ties of our common Kindred to disavow these Usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our Connections and Correspondence. They too have been deaf to the Voice of Justice and of Consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the Necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of Mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace, Friends.
    We, therefore, the Representatives of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the World for the Rectitude of our Intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly Publish and Declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be, Free and Independent States; that they are absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political Connection between them and the State of Great-Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm Reliance on the Protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.

    Signed by Order and in Behalf of the Congress,
    JOHN HANCOCK, President."

    https://declaration.fas.harvard.edu/resources/text
    Not exactly the same as equality in the way that leftists seek to demand it. Everyone is equal but that's not enough for leftists they want equality which is why they say things like, there aren't enough women CEOs or black coaches in the NFL as if there is some innate inequality in those statements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yakuda View Post
    Not exactly the same as equality
    I agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yakuda View Post
    I don't see why not. Is there any equality between me and LeBron James? Am I less free if there isn't?
    Ok since you mentioned LeBron James a black man let's use race as one issue.

    Were black people in the 50s who had separate restrooms and drinking fountains in stores, and required to sit in the back of the bus as free as whites?

    Today can I as a white man drive through an exclusive residential neighborhood at night worry about the police stopping me? Can a black person?

    That is just race. it can also apply to nationalities, sex, a whole range of things.

    True freedom can only happen when everyone is treated equally and by human nature that will never happen nor should it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle_Eye View Post
    Can one have true freedom without equality?
    Insightful and absolutely true.

    “Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.” -- Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yakuda View Post
    Is it more important to work toward freedom or equality?
    The freedom most fervently demanded by the American political right is freedom from social responsibility for all Americans of European ethnicity.
    The most important thing by far, then,
    and this should be obvious to any human being of good will,
    is to work toward the eradication of the American political right.

    If the Machiavellian concept of the "end justifying the means" is ever acceptable in any circumstance,
    and that's something that we must decide one way or the other,
    than the eradication of the American political right would clearly be that one individual circumstance.
    It's similar to the decision to nuke Japan in 1945, as a matter of fact. Right or wrong? Have we decided yet?

    I believe, with every fiber of my being, this is our most important thing to decide--right now.
    Patriotism is the last refuge of a a scoundrel. Samuel Johnson, 1775
    Religion....is the opiate of the people. Karl Marx, 1848
    Person...woman...man...camera...television. Donald Trump, 2020

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle_Eye View Post
    Ok since you mentioned LeBron James a black man let's use race as one issue.

    Were black people in the 50s who had separate restrooms and drinking fountains in stores, and required to sit in the back of the bus as free as whites?

    Today can I as a white man drive through an exclusive residential neighborhood at night worry about the police stopping me? Can a black person?

    That is just race. it can also apply to nationalities, sex, a whole range of things.

    True freedom can only happen when everyone is treated equally and by human nature that will never happen nor should it.
    Lebron James and I will NEVER be treated fairly. If you think so then you have no sense whatsoever. Life isn't fair singer over it. Leave me alone and I will leave you alone to make your way as best you can. Equality is a FORCED principle which will always have the opposite effect of making people equal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatOwlWoman View Post
    Insightful and absolutely true.

    That was the idea of communism. Each person was equal and shared ownership in everything. As I recall my high school class Communism versus Americanism it was called collective man.

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