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Thread: Capitol attack reflects US extremist evolution over decades

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Omar View Post
    I wasn’t talking about you but the lame whataboutism objection.
    But it is whataboutism. Since you didn't answer the first time, I'll ask you again: Which is bad? The BLM demonstrations or the attempted coup? Both? Neither?

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    Hello Diesel,

    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel View Post
    I appreciate your perspective, your optimism, and your thoughtful post. You sound like me two or three years ago. I am so far past that. The 2016 election was difficult for most people. I didn't vote for Trump (I didn't vote for Clinton either), but I did not hold a vote for Trump (or Clinton) against anyone. I spent at least the first year and probably close to the first two years of the Trump presidency pleading for unity. I joined online forums to learn why Trump supporters supported him. I had long, patient conversations with relatives and friends who supported Trump. I made a monumental effort to come to terms with the Trumpists in my life and Trumpists in general.

    Yet the situation only degraded. Trump dug the death grave deeper every waking hour of every godforsaken day for five long years. He never stopped lying. He hired people to lie for him. How did his supporters react? We all know the answer. They swallowed the poison pill hook, line, and sinker. They completely abandoned reality. They denied things that were undoubtedly true. They insisted on things that were undoubtedly false. They even claimed that the word "fact" doesn't have a definition. In fact, they claimed that no words have definitions, that everything is subjective and relative. There is no universal truth about anything. They claimed that their "opinions", however uniformed or blatantly deceptive, were equally as valid as proven science, medicine, and basic, provable facts. They continue to do all of those things to this very day.

    So tell me please, PoliTalker, if you can: How are we supposed to achieve unity with people who don't even operate in reality? If you don't agree that 2 + 2 = 4, then a conversation about math is pointless. If you think that purple is a dinosaur and not a color, we don't have any common ground for a meeting of the minds. This is not about political disagreement. This is about honesty. This is about being a normal, rational person who understands words, uses them appropriately, and acts honestly. Trumpists are none of those things. I would love to restrict our disagreements to budget bills and the national deficit and trade agreements and foreign policy. Instead, we have tens of millions of Americans who believe that their political opponents are satan worshippers who rape babies in the basement of a pizza joint.

    Lastly, I do believe in forgiveness, but I also believe that once someone shows their true colors, I should never forget it. I don't hate the Trumpists. I watched them proudly display overt, vile, hurtful, unapologetic racism and hatred for at least four years. They can be part of the American fabric. They're already here. But they may never, ever be a part of my life again. I will not unify with people who hate me because I am not white and not straight. I will not unify with people who trade in lies and then use their religion to condemn me. I'm just not there anymore. I will not be a battered spouse who continues to be abused just because I love my country and my fellow Americans. If Trumpists ever come to their senses, I will reevaluate my position, but I have no hope in the world that that will ever happen.
    I can certainly appreciate your perspective. I thank you for sharing your thoughts. I don't know what the future will bring or how we can heal this nation from the tremendous overwhelming hurt inflicted by Trump. All I do know at this point is that we have to try. The alternative of letting this nation dissolve and go away is just unthinkable. I can't imagine what would replace it, or if it would all even be one nation, several, or parts be consumed by other nations. I've got to fight for America to endure. I can't think of any other way at this point than to push for unity even when it looks seemingly impossible for that to happen in such a dark hour.

    It really boils down, for me, to my faith that human good is stronger than bad. That there are more good people than bad people. That the collective goodness of America is still stronger than the collective badness. Even though America is bruised and weakened by Trumpism and hatred, love must and shall prevail.

    It's a basic struggle between hate and love.

    Do we hate our neighbors for being different? Or do we love them for the diversity, even if it is not all beautiful. We know that some of our neighbors hate us for being different. Should we hate them for hating us? Where is that going to lead if everyone did that? The break up of America?

    I don't want that. Most Americans don't want that.

    You know, conservatives used to say: "America, love it or leave it." That was their old way of being intransigent. That led to a view that liberals should just leave America. Well, that didn't happen of course. Liberals love being Americans just as much as conservatives do. So now that that didn't happen, conservatives have decided to simply ignore that liberals exist. They want to pretend our institutions, such as strong government and the main stream media, are all BS. All along, they have clung to a hope that all of America can become conservative. They tried nicely inviting us to leave, (as they saw it,) and now they have progressed to insulting us and demanding that we share their beliefs or be silent.

    Well, obviously neither position is workable. So, we are at this point where everything is bitterly divided and it has boiled down into name-calling contests. Which accomplishes nothing and poisons meaningful progress.

    Out of this morass of hatred, we have got to pick up the pieces and find our way forward. We need good leadership.

    I think we just found it. Nobody got too excited about Biden. He is seen as dull and a non-star. An old has-been. Maybe that's just what we need. Maybe he is the perfect experienced wise leader to take us from where we are now and try to end the separation, try to draw us closer.

    I think we are at a point in America where we need to just slow down and take it all in. Where we are, how we got here, and just where we are going.

    I'm ready to let things ride, leave the lines of communication open, so when the right is done with this hateful hissy fit we can again talk. I am under no misconception that all of the hatred has come from the right. Many on the left have answered the hatred with hatred of their own. That has not worked well.

    I am truly sorry that American gave no more than lip service to Marianne Williamson. I supported her message of fighting hatred with love. Nobody wanted to hear it, but I did. She was right. I would like to see Biden incorporate her into his administration. Maybe we need a federal of love!
    Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel View Post
    But it is whataboutism. Since you didn't answer the first time, I'll ask you again: Which is bad? The BLM demonstrations or the attempted coup? Both? Neither?
    Both.

    How many threads did you start on BLM violence?
    Coup has started. First of many steps. Impeachment will follow ultimately~WB attorney Mark Zaid, January 2017

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Omar View Post
    Both.

    How many threads did you start on BLM violence?
    All summer, you & everyone on the right denounced Democrats & lefties here for not denouncing the riots loudly or often enough.

    Trump supporters had a riot - with much more dire consequences. It was at our Capitol, and some wanted to forcefully overturn a national election.

    Not only have you not started any threads condemning that - you have done nothing but downplay what happened.

    Seems like a bit of a double standard...no?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BartenderElite View Post
    All summer, you & everyone on the right denounced Democrats & lefties here for not denouncing the riots loudly or often enough.

    Trump supporters had a riot - with much more dire consequences. It was at our Capitol, and some wanted to forcefully overturn a national election.

    Not only have you not started any threads condemning that - you have done nothing but downplay what happened.

    Seems like a bit of a double standard...no?

    duhh...Trump is good....duhhhh

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Hello Diesel,



    I can certainly appreciate your perspective. I thank you for sharing your thoughts. I don't know what the future will bring or how we can heal this nation from the tremendous overwhelming hurt inflicted by Trump. All I do know at this point is that we have to try. The alternative of letting this nation dissolve and go away is just unthinkable. I can't imagine what would replace it, or if it would all even be one nation, several, or parts be consumed by other nations. I've got to fight for America to endure. I can't think of any other way at this point than to push for unity even when it looks seemingly impossible for that to happen in such a dark hour.

    It really boils down, for me, to my faith that human good is stronger than bad. That there are more good people than bad people. That the collective goodness of America is still stronger than the collective badness. Even though America is bruised and weakened by Trumpism and hatred, love must and shall prevail.

    It's a basic struggle between hate and love.

    Do we hate our neighbors for being different? Or do we love them for the diversity, even if it is not all beautiful. We know that some of our neighbors hate us for being different. Should we hate them for hating us? Where is that going to lead if everyone did that? The break up of America?

    I don't want that. Most Americans don't want that.

    You know, conservatives used to say: "America, love it or leave it." That was their old way of being intransigent. That led to a view that liberals should just leave America. Well, that didn't happen of course. Liberals love being Americans just as much as conservatives do. So now that that didn't happen, conservatives have decided to simply ignore that liberals exist. They want to pretend our institutions, such as strong government and the main stream media, are all BS. All along, they have clung to a hope that all of America can become conservative. They tried nicely inviting us to leave, (as they saw it,) and now they have progressed to insulting us and demanding that we share their beliefs or be silent.

    Well, obviously neither position is workable. So, we are at this point where everything is bitterly divided and it has boiled down into name-calling contests. Which accomplishes nothing and poisons meaningful progress.

    Out of this morass of hatred, we have got to pick up the pieces and find our way forward. We need good leadership.

    I think we just found it. Nobody got too excited about Biden. He is seen as dull and a non-star. An old has-been. Maybe that's just what we need. Maybe he is the perfect experienced wise leader to take us from where we are now and try to end the separation, try to draw us closer.

    I think we are at a point in America where we need to just slow down and take it all in. Where we are, how we got here, and just where we are going.

    I'm ready to let things ride, leave the lines of communication open, so when the right is done with this hateful hissy fit we can again talk. I am under no misconception that all of the hatred has come from the right. Many on the left have answered the hatred with hatred of their own. That has not worked well.

    I am truly sorry that American gave no more than lip service to Marianne Williamson. I supported her message of fighting hatred with love. Nobody wanted to hear it, but I did. She was right. I would like to see Biden incorporate her into his administration. Maybe we need a federal of love!
    I think everything you wrote is lovely. I just don't see how it's practical. Hope. Peace. Love. Unity. Yes, I want all of those things. The problem is as I outlined in my prior post. Until Trumpists are willing to acknowledge what is true and admit what is false -- until they're willing to be honest and speak with sincere conviction -- then there won't be any unity. I believe the country can and will recover. I hope Biden can play some role in that. I'm just not wasting any more of my time sending hugs and rainbows that are returned by flaming bags of dog feces and swastikas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Omar View Post
    Both.

    How many threads did you start on BLM violence?
    This is the only thread I have ever started at JPP, so the answer is none. Are you able to spend one second of your existence outside of whatabouting?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weasel View Post
    I'm used to them dismissing credible sources that don't agree with them.
    Irony.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel View Post
    https://apnews.com/article/capitol-s...8a03b459120c83

    "Right-wing [and left-wing // the two edits are mine and not the author's] extremism has previously played out for the most part in isolated pockets of America and in its smaller [and larger] cities. The deadly assault by rioters on the U.S. Capitol, in contrast, targeted the very heart of government. . . .

    "The Southern Poverty Law Center, which monitors U.S. extremists, has recorded a 55% increase in the number of white nationalist hate groups since 2017. . . .

    "Believers in QAnon are also reeling after Trump left office without fulfilling their baseless belief that he would vanquish a supposed cabal of Satan-worshipping cannibals, including top Democrats, operating a child sex trafficking ring."

    So what's it going to be? Are we really going to keep this up? I don't hold any illusions of unity. I don't even want unity. What I would like is peace and a return to rationality.
    All of that, and the nut jobs, whackadoos, extremists, and clinically insane back in the basement where they belong.

    It's no coincidence that these groups grew during the Time of the Hater-in-Chief.
    “Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.” -- Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weasel View Post
    The answer is none.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weasel View Post
    I was a high school history teacher for a brief time before I converted my profession.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    Irony.
    You don't understand irony. In fact, you appear not to understand almost anything at all. Get fucked, tumor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weasel View Post
    You don't understand irony. In fact, you appear not to understand almost anything at all. Get fucked, tumor.
    Can't deal with your own inconsistency, I see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatOwlWoman View Post
    All of that, and the nut jobs, whackadoos, extremists, and clinically insane back in the basement where they belong.

    It's no coincidence that these groups grew during the Time of the Hater-in-Chief.
    I'm trying to do my part. When I see some Trump sucker causing problems for someone, I usually step in. I won't tolerate racism. I won't tolerate transphobia. I won't tolerate xenophobia or homophobia. Living in NYC a lot, I definitely won't tolerate cat calls and other forms of sexism and misogyny. My interventions embarrass my friends and family to death. I won't stop. I'm going to continue to put my nose up against the nose of every asshole I see and tell them to crawl back under their rocks. If someone is a racist, transphobic, xenophobic, homophobic, sexist, misogynistic asshole, that's fine. But they're not going to exhibit it around me without a confrontation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    Can't deal with your own inconsistency, I see.
    No, I can't deal with your half-mummified, stinking ass spitting mashed peas at me while you struggle to remember the topic of conversation so you can see if you were ever going to be able to make a point. Get fucked, dickhead.

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