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Thread: Secession Is Not A Bad Idea

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    Default Secession Is Not A Bad Idea

    once enough Americans realize the Parasite Class is so deeply entrenched in the halls of power there is not a chance of repealing the XVI Amendment:

    Rush Limbaugh: Conservative States Are 'Trending Toward Secession'
    By Jeffrey Rodack
    Thursday, 10 December 2020 09:35 AM

    https://www.newsmax.com/politics/rus...10/id/1000877/

    Only nine states are governed by, and elected by, the Parasite Class; nevertheless, secession will create sovereign nations. Maybe only two:

    1. The United States of Big Government.

    2. The United States of Limited Government.

    The new nations are not contiguous; so there might be a lot more than two. The three parasite states on the West Coast might opt to go it alone, while the contiguous parasite states on the East Coast would become one sovereign nation. Those parasite states in the middle like Illinois would have the choice of joining with other states or becoming sovereign nations.

    There is one thing that states separating from the parasites states must prepare for. They must guard against all of those parasites pouring thru open borders from those welfare states claiming “We’s all Americans.” Once illegal aliens get into limited government states demanding citizenship —— they will infiltrate government in those limited government states in exactly the same way they did in the U.S.A. —— INCREMENTALLY. Demanding a tax on income will be their first priority because no parasite government can survive on voluntarily contributions as organized religions did before they became the government.

    Parenthetically, who will the priests in government tax to pay for their Garden of Eden? More importantly, who will do the work in states populated and governed by parasites only?

    Now let us assume that human nature will take its course and individual nations go to war against one another. Such a war would pit parasites states against limited government states. It would be the first war fought not fought over territory or organized religions priesthoods, but a war fought by two opposing personality types.

    Incidentally, parasites states will not defend this continent against foreign enemies like China, Russia, and the Muslim world. No change there. Democrats already do that.

    Happily, secession will shoot Abe Lincoln’s reason for the Civil War in the ass:


    The South did not commit treason, nor did Lincoln when he gave the country a war between the states rather than allow Confederate States to exercise their constitutional Right to secede.

    Lincoln is the last person anybody should invoke trying to justify the Civil War with the slavery argument. Everything Lincoln did and said set this country on the road to federal government control.

    Instead of civil war, Lincoln could have, and should have, worked within the Constitution if he felt so strongly about preserving the Union. Naturally, the Civil War would have been unnecessary had the South surrendered their Rights instead of defending them.

    The fact is that Lincoln saw the Constitution impeding his will.

    Americans celebrate Abraham Lincoln's Gettysburg Address, but H.L. Mencken correctly evaluated the speech, "It is poetry not logic; beauty, not sense." Lincoln said that the soldiers sacrificed their lives "to the cause of self-determination -- government of the people, by the people, for the people should not perish from the earth."

    Mencken says: "It is difficult to imagine anything more untrue. The Union soldiers in the battle actually fought against self-determination; it was the Confederates who fought for the right of people to govern themselves."

    The Real Lincoln
    Walter E. Williams | Mar 27, 2002

    http://townhall.com/columnists/walte...e_real_lincoln

    Mencken specifically objected to this:

    THAT FROM THESE HONORED DEAD WE TAKE INCREASED DEVOTION TO THAT CAUSE FOR WHICH THEY GAVE THE LAST FULL MEASURE OF DEVOTION~THAT WE HERE HIGHLY RESOLVE THAT THESE DEAD SHALL NOT HAVE DIED IN VAIN~THAT THIS NATION UNDER GOD SHALL HAVE A NEW BIRTH OF FREEDOM~AND THAT GOVERNMENT OF THE PEOPLE BY THE PEOPLE FOR THE PEOPLE SHALL NOT PERISH FROM THE EARTH

    NOTE: Lincoln stole a constitutional Right from the South in addition to providing a blueprint for the theft of stealing states’ Rights from every state.

    China Joe Biden’s attempted theft proves that:

    Nobody can make the case that America today is governed by, of, and for the people. Nobody can convince me that AMERICANS demanded open-borders, sanctuary cities, loss of their sovereignty, and everything else the federal government imposes on them. Everything the federal government does came from Lincoln’s blueprint. The result has been government by, of, and for the UNIC (United Nations/International Community) and illegal aliens.

    Lincoln used his gift of gab to impose his personal belief on the country; i.e., holding the Union together. Almost every president after Lincoln behaved as though their personal moral code overrides the Constitution. The recent spiritual leader, Obama, took Lincoln sacrificing the Constitution for his personal moral certainty far beyond what all of the other dirty little moralists did to the country.

    Bottom line: Lincoln can be blamed for the evils of today’s big government because he took the first step towards totalitarian government. Put it in perspective by examining all the harm that flowed from holding the Union together.

    https://www.justplainpolitics.com/sh...72#post2797672

    Finally, I have a dream —— Living in a freedom-loving nation without parasites would be a dream come true.
    The basic test of freedom is perhaps less in what we are free to do than in what we are free not to do. It is the freedom to refrain, withdraw and abstain which makes a totalitarian regime impossible. Eric Hoffer

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    Whenever anybody on FOX opposes it tells me that talking about secession is a good idea:


    “I think talk of secession is treason,” Rivera said.

    Note Rivera’s sly opposition to freedom of speech:


    “I want to be very clear, Rush Limbaugh is a powerhouse broadcaster, he’s one in a zillion.
    They come along once in a generation, but that talk is reckless, it’s irresponsible.”


    Geraldo says Rush Limbaugh’s 'reckless' and 'irresponsible' talk of secession is treason
    Stephen Proctor
    Fri., December 11, 2020, 2:02 a.m.
    EST·2 min read

    https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/ge...070209426.html
    The basic test of freedom is perhaps less in what we are free to do than in what we are free not to do. It is the freedom to refrain, withdraw and abstain which makes a totalitarian regime impossible. Eric Hoffer

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    The diseased Rush Limbaugh should spend his last few days contemplating the purity of his soul and spending quality time with family - not wallowing in the swamps of rightwing fascist and neo-Confederate fantasies.

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    WHAT NOW? The Fight for Our Freedom Continues Despite SCOTUS Ruling on Texas
    By Joe Hoft
    Published December 11, 2020 at 8:10pm

    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/202...-ruling-texas/

    I see secession as a blessing in disguise if Communist thief China Joe Biden is sworn in:


    Texas GOP: Perhaps Law-Abiding States Should ‘Form A Union’ That Will ‘Abide By Constitution’
    By Amanda Prestigiacomo
    Dec 11, 2020

    https://www.dailywire.com/news/break...y-constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Flanders View Post
    once enough Americans realize the Parasite Class is so deeply entrenched in the halls of power there is not a chance of repealing the XVI Amendment:
    Whether or not a majority of states form their own country the XVI Amendment can be repealed by 200 million Americans refusing to pay the federal tax on their incomes. The scum in government are already destroying business so there is every reason for employers refusing to convert the labor of their employees to money then send the money to parasite priests in Washington who then spend the money on their filthy morality.

    NOTE: Tax laws are the only laws the are the only laws that are strictly enforced by the scum in the Congress and their courts. Even before China Joe & Company broke every election law they broke every law they disagreed with. So their is ample precedence for Americans to disobey tax laws.

    Punishing everyone that broke a tax law worked for the Parasite Class because they arrested and prosecuted ‘law breakers’ one at a time. No individual can stand up to the power the XVI Amendment gave to Socialists/Communists.

    On the plus side, punishing individuals will not work when 200 million Americans BREAK THE SAME LAW à la the Volstead Act.

    NOTE: The XVIII Amendment was such a disaster it was the only Amendment ever to be repealed, and it was repealed 13 years after it was ratified. It will not take 13 years to repeal a known Communist thief.

    Parenthetically, nailing Al Capone on a tax beef gave the XVI Amendment more respectability than did anything else before or since. Al Capone’s conviction did more to sell a tax on income than did all of the touchy-feely social justice crapola combined. Incarcerating Big Al convinced Americans that the income tax was about locking up criminals. (How many bigtime government crooks have you seen go to jail for tax evasion since Capone?)

    Go back to before the XVI Amendment was implemented —— NOT RATIFIED —— and you will find that the sales pitch promised the income tax was going to make robber barons pay their fair share. Naturally, Socialist parasites determined fair share. Is not the Socialist promise the same today as it was at the turn of the 20th century? The rich do not pay enough. Is not the result the same with one difference? —— wealthy crooks got richer on tax dollars.

    Finally, with the single exception of the American Revolution that tuned out quite well, I personally oppose violent revolutions because they usually end badly regardless of which side wins. Should Biden’s Communists turn to violence to enforce the income tax, I suggest that Americans fighting for their liberties limit the killing to exterminating every wannabe priest in the federal government and television. Killing the priest personality is the only good result that can come from a violent Communist revolution.
    The basic test of freedom is perhaps less in what we are free to do than in what we are free not to do. It is the freedom to refrain, withdraw and abstain which makes a totalitarian regime impossible. Eric Hoffer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flanders View Post

    1. The United States of Big Government.

    2. The United States of Limited Government.
    The first would be run by Republicans, the second by Democrats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flanders View Post
    once enough Americans realize the Parasite Class is so deeply entrenched in the halls of power there is not a chance of repealing the XVI Amendment:

    Rush Limbaugh: Conservative States Are 'Trending Toward Secession'
    By Jeffrey Rodack
    Thursday, 10 December 2020 09:35 AM

    https://www.newsmax.com/politics/rus...10/id/1000877/

    Only nine states are governed by, and elected by, the Parasite Class; nevertheless, secession will create sovereign nations. Maybe only two:

    1. The United States of Big Government.

    2. The United States of Limited Government.

    The new nations are not contiguous; so there might be a lot more than two. The three parasite states on the West Coast might opt to go it alone, while the contiguous parasite states on the East Coast would become one sovereign nation. Those parasite states in the middle like Illinois would have the choice of joining with other states or becoming sovereign nations.

    There is one thing that states separating from the parasites states must prepare for. They must guard against all of those parasites pouring thru open borders from those welfare states claiming “We’s all Americans.” Once illegal aliens get into limited government states demanding citizenship —— they will infiltrate government in those limited government states in exactly the same way they did in the U.S.A. —— INCREMENTALLY. Demanding a tax on income will be their first priority because no parasite government can survive on voluntarily contributions as organized religions did before they became the government.

    Parenthetically, who will the priests in government tax to pay for their Garden of Eden? More importantly, who will do the work in states populated and governed by parasites only?

    Now let us assume that human nature will take its course and individual nations go to war against one another. Such a war would pit parasites states against limited government states. It would be the first war fought not fought over territory or organized religions priesthoods, but a war fought by two opposing personality types.

    Incidentally, parasites states will not defend this continent against foreign enemies like China, Russia, and the Muslim world. No change there. Democrats already do that.

    Happily, secession will shoot Abe Lincoln’s reason for the Civil War in the ass:


    The South did not commit treason, nor did Lincoln when he gave the country a war between the states rather than allow Confederate States to exercise their constitutional Right to secede.

    Lincoln is the last person anybody should invoke trying to justify the Civil War with the slavery argument. Everything Lincoln did and said set this country on the road to federal government control.

    Instead of civil war, Lincoln could have, and should have, worked within the Constitution if he felt so strongly about preserving the Union. Naturally, the Civil War would have been unnecessary had the South surrendered their Rights instead of defending them.

    The fact is that Lincoln saw the Constitution impeding his will.

    Americans celebrate Abraham Lincoln's Gettysburg Address, but H.L. Mencken correctly evaluated the speech, "It is poetry not logic; beauty, not sense." Lincoln said that the soldiers sacrificed their lives "to the cause of self-determination -- government of the people, by the people, for the people should not perish from the earth."

    Mencken says: "It is difficult to imagine anything more untrue. The Union soldiers in the battle actually fought against self-determination; it was the Confederates who fought for the right of people to govern themselves."

    The Real Lincoln
    Walter E. Williams | Mar 27, 2002

    http://townhall.com/columnists/walte...e_real_lincoln

    Mencken specifically objected to this:

    THAT FROM THESE HONORED DEAD WE TAKE INCREASED DEVOTION TO THAT CAUSE FOR WHICH THEY GAVE THE LAST FULL MEASURE OF DEVOTION~THAT WE HERE HIGHLY RESOLVE THAT THESE DEAD SHALL NOT HAVE DIED IN VAIN~THAT THIS NATION UNDER GOD SHALL HAVE A NEW BIRTH OF FREEDOM~AND THAT GOVERNMENT OF THE PEOPLE BY THE PEOPLE FOR THE PEOPLE SHALL NOT PERISH FROM THE EARTH

    NOTE: Lincoln stole a constitutional Right from the South in addition to providing a blueprint for the theft of stealing states’ Rights from every state.

    China Joe Biden’s attempted theft proves that:

    Nobody can make the case that America today is governed by, of, and for the people. Nobody can convince me that AMERICANS demanded open-borders, sanctuary cities, loss of their sovereignty, and everything else the federal government imposes on them. Everything the federal government does came from Lincoln’s blueprint. The result has been government by, of, and for the UNIC (United Nations/International Community) and illegal aliens.

    Lincoln used his gift of gab to impose his personal belief on the country; i.e., holding the Union together. Almost every president after Lincoln behaved as though their personal moral code overrides the Constitution. The recent spiritual leader, Obama, took Lincoln sacrificing the Constitution for his personal moral certainty far beyond what all of the other dirty little moralists did to the country.

    Bottom line: Lincoln can be blamed for the evils of today’s big government because he took the first step towards totalitarian government. Put it in perspective by examining all the harm that flowed from holding the Union together.

    https://www.justplainpolitics.com/sh...72#post2797672

    Finally, I have a dream —— Living in a freedom-loving nation without parasites would be a dream come true.
    If you want to secede, why don't you just shut-up and do it; I certainly won't miss you and your kind.
    Lock Him Up

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flanders View Post
    once enough Americans realize the Parasite Class is so deeply entrenched in the halls of power there is not a chance of repealing the XVI Amendment:

    Rush Limbaugh: Conservative States Are 'Trending Toward Secession'
    By Jeffrey Rodack
    Thursday, 10 December 2020 09:35 AM

    https://www.newsmax.com/politics/rus...10/id/1000877/

    Only nine states are governed by, and elected by, the Parasite Class; nevertheless, secession will create sovereign nations. Maybe only two:

    1. The United States of Big Government.

    2. The United States of Limited Government.

    The new nations are not contiguous; so there might be a lot more than two. The three parasite states on the West Coast might opt to go it alone, while the contiguous parasite states on the East Coast would become one sovereign nation. Those parasite states in the middle like Illinois would have the choice of joining with other states or becoming sovereign nations.

    There is one thing that states separating from the parasites states must prepare for. They must guard against all of those parasites pouring thru open borders from those welfare states claiming “We’s all Americans.” Once illegal aliens get into limited government states demanding citizenship —— they will infiltrate government in those limited government states in exactly the same way they did in the U.S.A. —— INCREMENTALLY. Demanding a tax on income will be their first priority because no parasite government can survive on voluntarily contributions as organized religions did before they became the government.

    Parenthetically, who will the priests in government tax to pay for their Garden of Eden? More importantly, who will do the work in states populated and governed by parasites only?

    Now let us assume that human nature will take its course and individual nations go to war against one another. Such a war would pit parasites states against limited government states. It would be the first war fought not fought over territory or organized religions priesthoods, but a war fought by two opposing personality types.

    Incidentally, parasites states will not defend this continent against foreign enemies like China, Russia, and the Muslim world. No change there. Democrats already do that.

    Happily, secession will shoot Abe Lincoln’s reason for the Civil War in the ass:


    The South did not commit treason, nor did Lincoln when he gave the country a war between the states rather than allow Confederate States to exercise their constitutional Right to secede.

    Lincoln is the last person anybody should invoke trying to justify the Civil War with the slavery argument. Everything Lincoln did and said set this country on the road to federal government control.

    Instead of civil war, Lincoln could have, and should have, worked within the Constitution if he felt so strongly about preserving the Union. Naturally, the Civil War would have been unnecessary had the South surrendered their Rights instead of defending them.

    The fact is that Lincoln saw the Constitution impeding his will.

    Americans celebrate Abraham Lincoln's Gettysburg Address, but H.L. Mencken correctly evaluated the speech, "It is poetry not logic; beauty, not sense." Lincoln said that the soldiers sacrificed their lives "to the cause of self-determination -- government of the people, by the people, for the people should not perish from the earth."

    Mencken says: "It is difficult to imagine anything more untrue. The Union soldiers in the battle actually fought against self-determination; it was the Confederates who fought for the right of people to govern themselves."

    The Real Lincoln
    Walter E. Williams | Mar 27, 2002

    http://townhall.com/columnists/walte...e_real_lincoln

    Mencken specifically objected to this:

    THAT FROM THESE HONORED DEAD WE TAKE INCREASED DEVOTION TO THAT CAUSE FOR WHICH THEY GAVE THE LAST FULL MEASURE OF DEVOTION~THAT WE HERE HIGHLY RESOLVE THAT THESE DEAD SHALL NOT HAVE DIED IN VAIN~THAT THIS NATION UNDER GOD SHALL HAVE A NEW BIRTH OF FREEDOM~AND THAT GOVERNMENT OF THE PEOPLE BY THE PEOPLE FOR THE PEOPLE SHALL NOT PERISH FROM THE EARTH

    NOTE: Lincoln stole a constitutional Right from the South in addition to providing a blueprint for the theft of stealing states’ Rights from every state.

    China Joe Biden’s attempted theft proves that:

    Nobody can make the case that America today is governed by, of, and for the people. Nobody can convince me that AMERICANS demanded open-borders, sanctuary cities, loss of their sovereignty, and everything else the federal government imposes on them. Everything the federal government does came from Lincoln’s blueprint. The result has been government by, of, and for the UNIC (United Nations/International Community) and illegal aliens.

    Lincoln used his gift of gab to impose his personal belief on the country; i.e., holding the Union together. Almost every president after Lincoln behaved as though their personal moral code overrides the Constitution. The recent spiritual leader, Obama, took Lincoln sacrificing the Constitution for his personal moral certainty far beyond what all of the other dirty little moralists did to the country.

    Bottom line: Lincoln can be blamed for the evils of today’s big government because he took the first step towards totalitarian government. Put it in perspective by examining all the harm that flowed from holding the Union together.

    https://www.justplainpolitics.com/sh...72#post2797672

    Finally, I have a dream —— Living in a freedom-loving nation without parasites would be a dream come true.
    i agree, but limited to only states where most of the adults there cannot spell "secession." that would be just the dumbfuck red states who rely on the blue states to keep afloat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trumpet View Post
    If you want to secede, why don't you just shut-up and do it;
    To Trumpet: I have no place to go, while asshole parasites like you can go to China, Cuba, North Korea, Vietnam, Venezuela, Canada, and any number of Socialist countries in Europe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy View Post
    rely on the blue states to keep afloat.
    To Hoosier Daddy: Parasites will not be able to keep themselves afloat when 200 hundred million private sector Americans refuse to pay the tax on income:

    Quote Originally Posted by Flanders View Post
    the XVI Amendment can be repealed by 200 million Americans refusing to pay the federal tax on their incomes.
    Wake up moron. The numbers, as well as states manufacturing weapons of war, shifted away from what it was in 1860 when loyalty to the federal government was at its highest. That loyalty has all but vanished today irrespective of decades of propaganda in movies and on television.

    In addition to today’s loyalties and a well-armed public, parasites will be outnumbered and outgunned in any armed confrontation. In fact, Biden’s parasites would be fools to rely on federal troops killing fellow Americans à la Lincoln. Fighting for Communism is a far cry from building a nation.

    Incidentally, Biden’s Communists offer Americans the first chance they ever had to settle the score with parasites for Vietnam.
    The basic test of freedom is perhaps less in what we are free to do than in what we are free not to do. It is the freedom to refrain, withdraw and abstain which makes a totalitarian regime impossible. Eric Hoffer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flanders View Post
    To Trumpet: I have no place to go, while asshole parasites like you can go to China, Cuba, North Korea, Vietnam, Venezuela, Canada, and any number of Socialist countries in Europe.



    To Hoosier Daddy: Parasites will not be able to keep themselves afloat when 200 hundred million private sector Americans refuse to pay the tax on income:



    Wake up moron. The numbers, as well as states manufacturing weapons of war power, shifted away from what it was in 1860 when loyalty to the federal government was at its highest. That loyalty has all but vanished today irrespective of decades of propaganda in movies and on television.

    In addition to today’s loyalties and a well-armed public, parasites will be outnumbered and outgunned in any armed confrontation. In fact, Biden’s parasites would be fools to rely on federal troops killing fellow Americans à la Lincoln. Fighting for Communism is a far cry from building a nation.

    Incidentally, Biden’s Communists offer Americans the first chance they ever had to settle the score with parasites for Vietnam.
    The vast majority of Americans have their Federal taxes paid through payroll deductions, of which they have no control over, Einstein.
    Do you think before posting such crap?

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    Quote Originally Posted by StoneByStone View Post
    The first would be run by Republicans, the second by Democrats.
    cognitive dissonance...........that second point anyway
    A sad commentary on we, as a people, and our viewpoint of our freedom can be summed up like this. We have liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans, yet those very people look at Constitutionalists as radical and extreme.................so those liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans must believe that the constitution is radical and extreme.

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    Quote Originally Posted by floridafan View Post
    The vast majority of Americans have their Federal taxes paid through payroll deductions, of which they have no control over, Einstein.
    To floridafan: Another halfwit that needs a lot of help with reading comprehension skill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flanders View Post
    The scum in government are already destroying business so there is every reason for employers refusing to convert the labor of their employees to money then send the money to parasite priests in Washington who then spend the money on their filthy morality.
    Quote Originally Posted by floridafan View Post
    Do you think before posting such crap?
    To floridafan: Assholes like never think before they reply. Instead of embarrassing yourself in the future do not reply.
    The basic test of freedom is perhaps less in what we are free to do than in what we are free not to do. It is the freedom to refrain, withdraw and abstain which makes a totalitarian regime impossible. Eric Hoffer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flanders View Post
    To floridafan: Another halfwit that needs a lot of help with reading comprehension skill.







    To floridafan: Assholes like never think before they reply. Instead of embarrassing yourself in the future do not reply.
    If I understand you right, corporate america will no loner deduct for payroll taxes? Are you fucking nuts. Public companies in particular have a fiduciary responsibility to follow the laws as written, that is if they want to stay in business..

    Please do not bother to respond, you are simply a fucking ignoramus, minus anything resembling a brain, my little sweetheart.

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    Trump is an enemy of the United States.

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    Quote Originally Posted by floridafan View Post
    If I understand you right, corporate america will no loner deduct for payroll taxes? Are you fucking nuts. Public companies in particular have a fiduciary responsibility to follow the laws as written, that is if they want to stay in business..

    To floridafan:
    You really are the height of stupidity. Not one corporation traded on Wall Street was harmed financially.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flanders View Post
    The scum in government are already destroying business

    Communists focused on destroying thousands of small businesses.


    Quote Originally Posted by BidenPresident View Post
    Trump is an enemy of the United States.

    To BidenPresident:
    Trump —— Not China!

    Your response makes me think I made a mistake calling floridafan the height of stupidity:


    Something Wicked This Way Comes [It is COMMUNIST China not Trump]
    By Ray DiLorenzo
    December 12, 2020

    https://canadafreepress.com/article/...his-way-comes1


    The Left has entered into an alliance with the Globalists and the Chinese Communist Party


    The Left has entered into an alliance with the Globalists and the Chinese Communist Party (CCP). Russia has been swept aside as a communist failure.

    The CCP is not successful because they are innovative, commercially or technically. Their achievements prevail because they are thieves. Their technology is our technology. The Chinese communists have purchased their way into our country by too many of us willing to sell. The Chinese are everywhere, Big Tech, the media, our corporations, education, and in the offices and beds of our politicians. And, they are in Canada. They have paid for and developed close relationships in the upper echelons of both our governments, including the Biden crime family. The CCP is setting up cells at universities all across America. The CCP has latched on to our freedom, not to copy it, but to use it to destroy us.

    XXXXX

    This is no time to be faint of heart, to shrink into the background. It’s a time to find your courage, to protect what you hold dear. We will either have a political solution where the law and the Constitution is upheld, or we will have a military solution where bodies of the dead will pile up in the streets. Which will it be?
    The basic test of freedom is perhaps less in what we are free to do than in what we are free not to do. It is the freedom to refrain, withdraw and abstain which makes a totalitarian regime impossible. Eric Hoffer

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