Never-Trumpers cost Trump the election

[martin]

Oh they cost him the election alright, because they held many positions of power in the government. It's pretty clear that the establishment runs things regardless of who is elected. Voting is just a facade of democracy that we have.

Cynicism like this is easy and not smart. Depending on which party and which people hold office there are vast differences in the way "things are run".

[SuperStringTheory]

Eh, he won in ‘16 without Never Trumpers so how could those same folks cost him the election this time? (Now if you’re a Republican, or Democrat, it doesn’t help you to have members of your party not vote for you but nonetheless...)

A lot of them voted for Johnson or sat out 2016.

[cawacko]

A lot of them voted for Johnson or sat out 2016.

Are you saying they voted for Biden this time? If yes, any idea what that number is?

Anecdotally I’m a Republican who didn’t vote for Trump but I sure as hell didn’t vote for Hillary or Biden.

[SuperStringTheory]

Are you saying they voted for Biden this time? If yes, any idea what that number is?

Anecdotally I’m a Republican who didn’t vote for Trump but I sure as hell didn’t vote for Hillary or Biden.

https://www.google.com/search?q=poll...hrome&ie=UTF-8

[cawacko]

https://www.google.com/search?q=poll...hrome&ie=UTF-8

We know polling was off in this election so while I don’t doubt the premise is there actual post election data that shows the number of Republicans who didn’t vote for Trump or Hillary in ‘16 but did vote for Biden?

(While Jill Stein voters could technically count as Never Trumpers they aren’t really who the term is referring to. I’m assuming most people who voted for her don’t consider themselves Republicans.)

[SuperStringTheory]

We know polling was off in this election so while I don’t doubt the premise is there actual post election data that shows the number of Republicans who didn’t vote for Trump or Hillary in ‘16 but did vote for Biden?

They were not off by thirty fucking points. That's the spread in these polls of third party voters from 2016.

Other than the vote totals where do you expect to get such information, but a poll?

[BartenderElite]

Why DID they stop counting, anyway? I don’t buy the ‘they were sleepy’ bit.

They didn't.

That's more propaganda you just accepted without looking into it.

It's false that they "stopped counting."

[BartenderElite]

Wait, I thought the country was irredeemably racist.

What a lazy reply.

Racism has always been a problem, and it is still a major problem.

But huge strides have been made in that area. And it doesn't change that this is still the most free and prosperous that people have EVER been in history - and Trump supporters act like we live in some oppressive hell where Trump is their "last chance."

[cawacko]

They were not off by thirty fucking points. That's the spread in these polls of third party voters from 2016.

Other than the vote totals where do you expect to get such information, but a poll?

But all those third party voters in 2016 weren’t Republicans. The term ‘Never Trumpers’, as I understand it, refers specifically to Republicans who did not vote for Trump in ‘16.

Third party voters in ‘16 who voted for Biden definitely played a role in his victory. No question about that. But the OP is specifically about (Republican) Never Trumpers and nothing posted so far specifically addresses the numbers regarding those voters.

[BartenderElite]

Trump is probably the least corrupt man that has ever run for office. I don’t expect the marxists to believe it because well they are marxists and all marxists lie.

The pretense that we have two opposing parties has beeen blown up. Look at Mao Mitch McConnell who is as sold out to China as Biden. Romney? I knew we would regret him being in the Senate.

Nope time to blow it all up. Split the country apart

Trump is a narcissist and con man. He is actually the most corrupt President in modern times.

[SuperStringTheory]

But all those third party voters in 2016 weren’t Republicans. The term ‘Never Trumpers’, as I understand it, refers specifically to Republicans who did not vote for Trump in ‘16.

Third party voters in ‘16 who voted for Biden definitely played a role in his victory. No question about that. But the OP is specifically about (Republican) Never Trumpers and nothing posted so far specifically addresses the numbers regarding those voters.

This sort of analyses is always quite speculative because we have a secret ballot. But there is plenty of data to support the narrative that a large number of never Trumpers voted for Johnson in 16 then for Biden in 2020. Johnson's numbers were far above average for the LP and well above what he managed in 2012. What explains that? I mean some of them might have come from Dems dissatisfied with Hillary but...

Jorgensen did not do nearly as well, though she still did well for the LP (maybe she retained some of those never Trumpers).

[Saudade]

Cynicism like this is easy and not smart. Depending on which party and which people hold office there are vast differences in the way "things are run".

Actually, it's much easier to assume that your vote makes a difference and that everything is ok.

[SmarterthanYou]

There is no big mystery to this election. No weird riddle as to why Biden won in such big #'s, but Republicans picked up votes further down the ballot.

Disaffected Republicans who didn't buy into the "don't take his words literally" and "you have to look at results and not the person" were the ones who determined this outcome.

And Trump and his supporters made the mistake of thinking it was just a few prominent politicians and conservative pundits. It was millions of normally solid GOP voters - mostly in the suburbs, where Trump really lost ground (not those inner cities, where Trump has his "fraud" accusations focused).

And he only has himself to blame. Trump and his supporters ridiculed and vilified this group. They made no attempt at all to bring them back into the fold, or make them feel wanted or represented.

Trump lost because he not only failed to deliver on his 'drain the swamp' bullshit, but increased the size and depth of that swamp.............as was the nature of the establishment

[martin]

Actually, it's much easier to assume that your vote makes a difference and that everything is ok.

I don't know anyone who believes a single vote makes a difference and that everything is ok, but if you do that's fine.

[Bill]

I did not say it was.

This is what he said

Singapore has the ideal model of government, but expanding it to the size of America would be difficult.