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Thread: God -- really?

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    Default God -- really?

    IMO, quantum physics renders Aquinas' third proof largely specious. General relativity does not really explain away the first proof. I can potentially be sold on a purposefully engineered universe, aka the fifth proof.

    - The Theist Perspective -

    Thomas Aquinas' Five Proofs of God

    Thomas’s first proof is based on the concept of a prime mover, now understood as the result of an inference to the best explanation for celestial dynamics.

    The second proof is from the nature of the effcient cause. From the fact that we can now see directly the effects of causal chains originating in times remote from human experience, we are called upon to make plausible inferences as to how the first effcient cause, got the game started, and this, says Thomas, is that “which all call God.”

    The third proof is taken from the natures of the merely possible and necessary. Given that “nothing can come from nothing” and that there are many things, there must have been something that was the source of the first thing.

    The fourth proof arises from degrees—of goodness, truth, nobility, and the like—that are found in things. There exists therefore something that is the truest, best, and noblest—the greatest being.

    Thomas gives as the fifth proof the natural order itself: “There is something intelligent by which all natural things are arranged in accordance with a plan—and this we call God.”


    - The Atheist Perspective -

    Sigmund Freud regarded God as an illusion, based on the infantile need for a powerful father figure; religion, necessary to help us restrain violent impulses earlier in the development of civilization, can now be set aside in favor of reason and science.

    Steven Hawking: "I think the universe was spontaneously created out of nothing, according to the laws of science. If you accept, as I do, that the laws of nature are fixed, then it doesn't take long to ask: What role is there for God?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    IMO, quantum physics renders Aquinas' third proof quite specious. I can potentially be sold on a purposefully engineered universe, aka the fifth proof.
    The "prime mover" comes from Aristotle, whom St Thomas called, "The Philosopher."

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    Quote Originally Posted by BidenPresident View Post
    The "prime mover" comes from Aristotle, whom St Thomas called, "The Philosopher."
    Correct indeed. Thomas Aquinas helped resurrect Aristotle in the western intellectual tradition, and Aquinas modeled his Christian philosophy on Aristotelian logic.

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    Purpose being the goal to meet the original Persona...eventually.

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    Is "Persona" a result of Evolution?

    or

    Is "Persona" the original wellspring of purpose?

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    'God'. Could be many things.

    The Problem is ... the 'Storyline'.

    Once you get past 'Prime Mover' ... that's when the High Priests engage in the 'Kill the Infidels' campaigns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    'God'. Could be many things.

    The Problem is ... the 'Storyline'.

    Once you get past 'Prime Mover' ... that's when the High Priests engage in the 'Kill the Infidels' campaigns.
    Christian existentialists like Kierkegaard considered God radically transcendent and beyond human ability to know or rationalise. From that perspective, every religion is just presenting a different face of God. "God" could literally be a human construct for any creative force beyond our comprehension.

    I think Steven Hawking is asking the wrong question. Science is very good at reasoning "how" things happen. But it is not really intended to answer "why" things happen
    Steven Hawking: "I think the universe was spontaneously created out of nothing, according to the laws of science. If you accept, as I do, that the laws of nature are fixed, then it doesn't take long to ask: What role is there for God?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    Christian existentialists like Kierkegaard considered God radically transcendent and beyond human ability to know or rationalise. From that perspective, every religion is just presenting a different face of God. "God" could literally be a human construct for any creative force beyond our comprehension.

    I think Steven Hawking is asking the wrong question. Science is very good at reasoning "how" things happen. But it is not really intended to answer "why" things happen
    =Cypress;4053904 Christian existentialists like Kierkegaard considered God radically transcendent and beyond human ability to know or rationalise. From that perspective, every religion is just presenting a different face of God. "God" could literally be a human construct for any creative force beyond our comprehension.
    I agree with this.

    I think Steven Hawking is asking the wrong question. Science is very good at reasoning "how" things happen. But it is not really intended to answer "why" things happen
    Maybe 'why' doesn't enter into the equation? (Like, why did Dinosaurs roam the Earth for 200 million years?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    I agree with this.



    Maybe 'why' doesn't enter into the equation? (Like, why did Dinosaurs roam the Earth for 200 million years?)
    Or better yet, why do we waste our limited time on earth at JPP?
    "Where the people fear the govt. you have tyranny. Where the govt. fears the people you have liberty."

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    Quote Originally Posted by anonymoose View Post
    Or better yet, why do we waste our limited time on earth at JPP?

    It's sad when you have nothing better to do than sit at a keyboard and argue with anonymous internet personas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    I think Steven Hawking is asking the wrong question. Science is very good at reasoning "how" things happen. But it is not really intended to answer "why" things happen
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post

    Maybe 'why' doesn't enter into the equation? (Like, why did Dinosaurs roam the Earth for 200 million years?)
    Mechanistic explanations for how things happen is important, but to many of the greatest philisophers and intellects in western history, it is does not provide true knowlege of ultimate reality.

    I understand mechanistically that a quantuum singularity may have resulted in the universe we observe. The "why?" question is what has occupied natural philosophers and the naturally inquisitive

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    Mechanistic explanations for how things happen is important, but to many of the greatest philisophers and intellects in western history, it is does not provide true knowlege of ultimate reality.

    I understand mechanistically that a quantuum singularity may have resulted in the universe we observe. The "why?" question is what has occupied natural philosophers and the naturally inquisitive

    The "why?" question is what has occupied natural philosophers and the naturally inquisitive
    Which implies there is a reason. Maybe there is no reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    'God'. Could be many things.

    The Problem is ... the 'Storyline'.

    Once you get past 'Prime Mover' ... that's when the High Priests engage in the 'Kill the Infidels' campaigns.
    Absolutely, well stated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    'God'. Could be many things.
    Okay. Like what?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bhaktajan View Post
    Okay. Like what?


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