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Thread: Why do people still believe in Jesus and Christianity?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    It is anachronistic belief to assume antiquity is like the modern age, with journalists, bureaucrats, government employees diligently recording the most mundane events, and hermetically sealing the papyrus scrolls to ensure they survive 2000 years for our reading pleasure.

    Very few people were literate or capable of writing in the middle iron age of two millennia ago. And they certainly would not have been diligently recording and archiving the execution of an obscure Jewish peasant.

    For the people who could write in antiquity, they certainly were not writing about illiterate peasants who were executed as common criminals.

    The surprising thing actually is that there is such a substantial written record about an illiterate Jewish peasant from a provincial backwater, compiled within 20 to 50 years of his execution.
    I believe that St. Luke, the Greek, had a hand in that. According to history he actually met with Mary, Mother of Jesus, and others of his retinue. Plus he wrote his gospel(s) in Greek, so they were picked up and spread by more learned people than the peasants both Roman and other.
    "Conservatism is the blind and fear-filled worship of dead radicals." -- Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    Unfortunately, you have exactly zero tangible evidence that God had anything to do with Paul and Constantine.
    Paul/Saul's "On the road to Damascus" is a very good example of Christianity as a revealed religion.
    St. Paul wrote (spoke?) about it extensively, and it literally changed his life -that one revelation.

    I think that could be safely called a historical event -evidence that God did directly intercede

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conver...ay_to_Damascus
    The conversion of Paul from persecutor to apostle is a well-known biblical story. According to the New Testament, Saul of Tarsus was a zealous Pharisee, who intensely persecuted the followers of Jesus, even participating in the stoning of Stephen. He was on his way from Jerusalem to Damascus to arrest the Christians of the city.

    As he went he drew near Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven shone around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me?" He said, “Who are You, Lord?” The Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.”[10]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Into the Night View Post
    No. Contextomy fallacy.
    Oh if I can't slap your face ..

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fellatio

    Fella tio fall assy

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatOwlWoman View Post
    I believe that St. Luke, the Greek, had a hand in that. According to history he actually met with Mary, Mother of Jesus, and others of his retinue. Plus he wrote his gospel(s) in Greek, so they were picked up and spread by more learned people than the peasants both Roman and other.
    Good stuff. Luke is my favorite gospel. The focus on social justice is especially compelling

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    Quote Originally Posted by anatta View Post
    Paul/Saul's "On the road to Damascus" is a very good example of Christianity as a revealed religion.
    St. Paul wrote (spoke?) about it extensively, and it literally changed his life -that one revelation.

    I think that could be safely called a historical event -evidence that God did directly intercede

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conver...ay_to_Damascus
    The conversion of Paul from persecutor to apostle is a well-known biblical story. According to the New Testament, Saul of Tarsus was a zealous Pharisee, who intensely persecuted the followers of Jesus, even participating in the stoning of Stephen. He was on his way from Jerusalem to Damascus to arrest the Christians of the city.
    There is no question Paul was inspired by Jesus, and experienced some sort of epiphany. That passes the sniff test for historicity. Whether Jesus was a human prophet, a divine being, or something in between is an open question not available to historical analysis

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven VanderMolen View Post
    Yep. Good point.
    Not that the cross conditioned way beyond therapy are cognitive dissonance oblivious according to the ongoing replies, but so it goes....

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    And the TROLLS march on.........

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    Quote Originally Posted by saltydancin View Post
    Not that the cross conditioned way beyond therapy are cognitive dissonance oblivious according to the ongoing replies, but so it goes....
    Yes, "And so it goes, AND so it goes, where's it's going, no one knows.............................." (Quote courtesy of singer/songwriter/bass player/record producer extraordinaire, Nick Lowe.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
    And the TROLLS march on.........
    Including our little Ralphie, RIGHT HERE. Troll extraordinaire. NOT that there's anything WRONG with that. I'm a SUPER TROLL, myself, and PROUD of that. There's a certain skill involved in trolling successfully. I'm successful most of the time, sometimes not. C'est la vie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven VanderMolen View Post
    Including our little Ralphie, RIGHT HERE. Troll extraordinaire. NOT that there's anything WRONG with that. I'm a SUPER TROLL, myself, and PROUD of that. There's a certain skill involved in trolling successfully. I'm successful most of the time, sometimes not. C'est la vie.
    Unfortunately for ralf he is merely a low grade troll but w/ some natural abilities w/ the mind of a mouse trap.. Perhaps you can take him under your wing & teach him some discipline....
    "There is no question former President Trump bears moral responsibility. His supporters stormed the Capitol because of the unhinged falsehoods he shouted into the world’s largest megaphone," McConnell wrote. "His behavior during and after the chaos was also unconscionable, from attacking Vice President Mike Pence during the riot to praising the criminals after it ended."



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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    Unfortunately for ralf he is merely a low grade troll but w/ some natural abilities w/ the mind of a mouse trap.. Perhaps you can take him under your wing & teach him some discipline....
    Thanks, Bill, but I believe our little Ralphie is beyond help OR hope, due to his somewhat severe mental handicap. The poor bastard is lucky if his I.Q. is even 80-85. Quite sad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    Unfortunately for ralf he is merely a low grade troll but w/ some natural abilities w/ the mind of a mouse trap.. Perhaps you can take him under your wing & teach him some discipline....
    "...and the Lord said, 'below the snake is the troll who shall spend his life alone in a dark cave and throwing rocks at all who pass by outside his cave.'"
    God bless America and those who defend our Constitution.

    "Hatred is a failure of imagination" - Graham Greene, "The Power and the Glory"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    You would likely never have heard of Christianity or Jesus without Paul's missionary work to the Gentile communities, or without Constantine deciding to give the Empire's blessing to a minor and fairly obscure religion.

    Without Paul and Constantine, Christianity might well have remained an obscure and tiny sect of Judaism and might have faded away with time.

    That is what I meant that in the context of history, Jesus would never have been of profound historical influence without Paul and Constantine, and the events surrounding them over the course of three centuries.
    Actually it would have been spread the same way Paul spread it, by converted Pharisees traveling from synagogue to synagogue and preaching to the congregations and crowds. Jesus had been preaching for three years before going to Jerusalem, and most likely his followers had already been spreading his speeches, or sermons and word of his healings or whatever you want to call them. He was not a 'poor obscure peasant', but from a family descended from the line of David, and while a 'carpenter', Joseph was not a poor one, but held a franchise to supply wood to the Temple, which would have been a lucrative business indeed given the priests made a lot of money sacrificing animals for the streams of pilgrims and selling the cooked meat. All those letters came from established congregations, over significant distances around the Empire, not just a couple of people here and there. Paul wasn't the only Pharisee to convert; both Mathew and John were probably Pharisees as well, or taught by them, given their extensive knowledge of the Torah, as was Jesus's obvious scholarship. Luke was a gentile, but he was a follower and student of Paul, who was also likely a student of Gameliel the Elder, and Jesus's comments on the Torah indicate he might have been a student of Hillel's school.

    Christianity was already huge by the time of Constantine; it had been through recent severe persecutions by the other Consuls of the Tetrarchy and severe one under the previous Emperor as well; commentators remarked on how crippled up many of the attendees at Nicea were, having been tortured and abused, saying it looked more like a convention of beggars than theologians and Bishops. The reason Constantine was impressed by them was precisely because their social programs for their churches and congregations were so successful compared to the pagans' corrupted scams and the Imperial bureaucrats' woefully inadequate efforts, and he put them in charge; not a big mystery at all. Constantine changed nothing, and 'rewrote' nothing, and neither did the Council attendees; that's because the orthodoxy was dominant from the beginning, and most of the oral witnessing already established before the fall of the Temple in 70 A.D., and well known for some 300 years already. If they had changed it all up they would have been laughed out of their own houses for being stupid.

    It survived because it was so obviously humanitarian and universal a social paradigm it stood head and shoulders above the state religions and bloody atavistic pagan rubbish its popularity could withstand even the extreme persecutions the Roman govt. could impose on it, and also the same in the Persian regions and in the Celtic regions of Europe. In the 'context of history' it was pretty successful, and a far better alternative than the other options, and the same goes for most of 'The Other Options' today as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven VanderMolen View Post
    Thanks, Bill, but I believe our little Ralphie is beyond help OR hope, due to his somewhat severe mental handicap. The poor bastard is lucky if his I.Q. is even 80-85. Quite sad.
    Oh, I didn't realize ralf is a special needs member, I will try to keep that in mind, thank you..
    "There is no question former President Trump bears moral responsibility. His supporters stormed the Capitol because of the unhinged falsehoods he shouted into the world’s largest megaphone," McConnell wrote. "His behavior during and after the chaos was also unconscionable, from attacking Vice President Mike Pence during the riot to praising the criminals after it ended."



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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    Appeal to authority fallacy, 12c subsection IIIa

    The bible has to be critically assessed for historicity like all ancient literature, Ilyiad, Beowulf, Baghavad Gita, et al.



    Poisoning the well fallacy 8b, section 14
    No, the Bible does not have to be critically assessed at all. It is tangible evidence. You just reject it.
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