View Poll Results: West coast fires:

Voters
12. You may not vote on this poll
  • "Climate change"

    1 8.33%
  • DEMOCRAT forest mismanagement

    3 25.00%
  • Arson

    2 16.67%
  • "Climate change" and DEMOCRAT forest mismanagement

    0 0%
  • DEMOCRAT forest mismanagement and arson

    6 50.00%
  • Mother Nature is angry

    0 0%
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Thread: West coast fires: "climate change", DEMOCRAT mismanagement, or arson?

  1. #31 | Top
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    Thank you for debunking your own implied 'It's the Democrats' partisan hackery you so often engage in.
    Is that what I wrote?

  2. #32 | Top
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    Is that what I wrote?
    You didn't read it. (?)

  3. #33 | Top
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    You didn't read it. (?)
    I wrote it, and in no way did I write what you said I "implied".

    Your trolling is boring.

  4. #34 | Top
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    One side mentions 'Climate Change'.
    The other side calls Climate Change a 'Chinese Hoax'.

    (see the Problem?)
    Yeah I do, you're an idiot.
    Don't be afraid to see what you see

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    cancel2 2022 (09-18-2020), Earl (09-19-2020)

  6. #35 | Top
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    Probably all BLM supporters just starting fires for "social justice."
    Keep changing the names. It doesn't change the meaning.



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    Lightbringer (09-18-2020)

  8. #36 | Top
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irish View Post
    Probably all BLM supporters just starting fires for "social justice."
    Some, I suspect, but the west burns every year.

    Some fires are accidental, some are arson, and some are caused by lightning. It's nothing new, although climate alarmists seem to think that it is.

  9. #37 | Top
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irish View Post
    Probably all BLM supporters just starting fires for "social justice."
    Those trees are racist and you know it!
    Don't be afraid to see what you see

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  11. #38 | Top
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grajonca View Post
    The mind boggles at the duplicity of the NYT.
    It's not duplicitous at all by Leftist standards... those two articles were written almost a year apart. Duplicity occurs when the articles appear in the same edition on the same day...

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  13. #39 | Top
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    “'A Nuclear Winter' Over Bay Area, as Wildfires Blot Out the Sun,” read the failing New York Times headline.

    The same mechanism that caused the orange sky is what could destroy agriculture in the wake of a thermonuclear war: particulate matter from burned wood blocking parts of the light spectrum from reaching the ground.

    And yet the air quality wasn’t nearly as bad as it looked.

    “The good thing about it is most of the smoke is staying aloft,” the air quality meteorologist for the Bay Area Air Quality Management District, said.

    “The sun is able to scatter those smoke particles that produce this apocalyptic orange color that we’re seeing.”

    And while the 2 million acres that have burned in California so far in 2020 is 10 times more area than burned in 2019, it’s still 2 million acres less than the lowest estimate for acres burned within modern state borders annually before Europeans settled in America.

    “California was a very smoky place historically,” says Malcolm North of the US Forest Survey.

    “Even though we’re seeing area burned that is off-the-charts, it’s still less than what used to be burned before Europeans arrived.”

    Many reporters note that more area has burned this year in California than at any other point in “the modern period,” but that period began in 1950.

    For the last half of the 20th Century, the annual area burned in California was just 250,000 acres a year, whereas the best-available science suggests 4.4 and 12 million acres burned in California annually before the arrival of Europeans.

    “On reflection, anthropogenic burning is higher than what we had for the lower estimate,” said the lead author of that paper, Scott Stevens of UC Berkeley. “You talk to Native American elders and they say they burned oak woodlands every 2-3 years.”

    The real problem, scientists say, is that today’s mountain forest fires are hotter and kill more trees than many forest fires killed in the past. Is that due to climate change?

    Explains North, “It’s not the cause of the intensity of the fires. The cause of that is fire suppression and the existing debt of wood fuel.”

    For most of the last 100 years, Californians suppressed fires in forests, resulting in the accumulation of roughly five times more wood fuel debris than existed in forests before Europeans arrived.

    So does that mean the smoke in the air is a function not of area burned, but instead, a function of wood fuel density?

    “Yes,” says North.

    He pointed out that the 2013-2014 Rim fire, which burned 250,000 acres, exposed five times more people to unhealthy air conditions from smoke than it would have if the same area had been burned regularly with smaller “prescribed” fires.

    High temperatures, forest fires, and smoky skies also occurred in California in the nineteenth century. “It’s hot – monstrous hot!” wrote the San Francisco correspondent for the New York Times on September 17, 1860. “An unusual thing for San Francisco.”

    On September 2, 1894, the New York Times published an article headlined, “The Cause of the Hazy Air - All Due to the Unusual Prevalence of Forest Fires.”

    Said a scientist, “Similar conditions have been noticed in the past, notably on the ‘dark day’ in 1781, probably caused by smoke. In 1881 there was another dark day.”

    Things seemed apocalyptic back then, too.

    “In 1781 the smoke was so dense that many persons thought the day of judgment had come.”

    While fire suppression has allowed the build-up of wood fuel in California’s mountain forests, such as the Sierra Nevadas, big, hot fires burned in southern California’s chaparral or shrubland forests in 1889, 1919, and 1932, long before fire suppression.

    Keeley and his colleagues reviewed 100 newspaper reports from the 19th Century and found that “large, high-intensity wildfires predate modern fire suppression policy” and concluded that “the 1889 Santiago Canyon Fire was the largest fire in California history.”

    In 1895, San Francisco was affected by haze from fires. “The bluish haze that brooded everywhere,” noted the Times’ San Francisco correspondent in 1895, “and to many, the trouble was just fog. But it was real smoke that rode in on the winds.”

    “California Forests Burned,” reported the Times on September 3, 1899. “Fire Which Started a Week Ago Has Traversed 700,000 Acres and Cannot Be Controlled.”

    The US Forest Service adopted a policy of fire suppression. President Teddy Roosevelt and his Forest Service chief, Gifford Pinchot, expanded federal control over forests to suppress fires.

    A turning point was the Federal government’s effort to battle the Great Fire of 1910, otherwise known as the Big Burn.

    Over two days in August, fires burned 3 million acres, an area the size of Connecticut, in Idaho, Montana, Washington, and British Columbia.

    Like the fires burning in California this year, the Big Burn was started by dry lightning and moved quickly through dried-out forest lands. Seventy-eight firefighters were killed and Pinchot turned them into martyrs for the Forest Service.

    Congress doubled its budget and expanded its policy of fire suppression.

    Public support for fire suppression, including from California’s elites, grew in the 1920s and 1930s after forest fires wiped out 1,000 homes in Berkeley, and burned 60,000 acres in Malibu.

    Within half a century, scientists realized that fire suppression was a mistake.

    “By the 1960s when we realized it was a problem,” said Keeley. “Vast amount of fuels had accumulated for 50 or more years. The fires became far bigger than what could easily be handled.”

    Historians agree.

    “By putting out every fire,” noted Timothy Egan, who wrote a book on the Big Burn, “they created the greatest wildfires.”

    Over the last 50 years, the US Forest Service has only gradually started to use more prescription burning, due to community resistance.

    “Very often people complain about it,” says Keeley, “and oftentimes slow it down and limit it. And I understand why. While I agree with prescription burning, I also understand that smoke is obnoxious.”

    Indeed, politicians are already blaming the US Forest Service for not putting one of northern California’s fires out sooner. “Butte County Supervisor Bill Connelly, a DEMOCRAT,” reported the Sacramento Bee, “said the US Forest Service ‘let this fire smolder for weeks. They could have put it out.’”

    Mechanical harvesting or “thinning” of forests by crews with chainsaws is an alternative to prescribed burns, but far more expensive, scientists note.

    Indeed, it usually only makes sense economically if loggers are allowed to cut down larger trees, a policy that has traditionally been opposed by environmentalists.

    North is hopeful the public will be more accepting of smoke if they know it’s inevitable and are better prepared for it.

    “It’s all going to burn at some point. If we stay with business-as-usual, then you can plan on most of the forests being completely fuel-saturated, conditions that produce the massive fires where we have no control over the timing or direction of the smoke.

    “If the public realizes that you’re going to get fire and smoke one way or another,” said North, “and pushes the agencies to have fires in a more predictable manner, they might say, ‘Let’s do it if you give me more warning.’”

    What matters is giving people a feeling of control over the fires. “People say, ‘This sucks. I don’t want fires everywhere.’ But it’s a whole different world when you decide the conditions,” says North.

    And yet the news media, particularly liberal journalists writing for East Coast newspapers, seem intent on painting the fires as apocalyptic, and due to climate change, even though the skies would still be smoky and orange from fires burning the accumulation of wood fuel.

    The problem isn’t the misleading coverage per se.

    The problem is that the misleading coverage risks making people feel less control over the fires. After all, everyone knows that emissions reductions won’t change the amount of area burned or smoke produced any time soon.

    Scientists say somewhere between 500,000 and 4 million acres of forest land need to burn annually in California.

    Accepting that reality, and managing it in a practical and more nuanced way, requires moving beyond the kind of environmental alarmism that got us into this mess in the first place.

    If we do that, then we might be able to both limit, and plan for, the number of days in the future when we have to wake up to orange skies.



    Michael Shellenberger is a Time Magazine “Hero of the Environment,” Green Book Award Winner, and author of Apocalypse Never: Why Environmental Alarmism Hurts Us All"












    https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelshellenberger/2020/09/10/why-environmental-alarmism-makes-forest-fires-worse/#5a595f0c3712

  14. #40 | Top
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guille View Post
    Those trees are racist and you know it!
    Have to take down this racist ass system one way or another!
    Keep changing the names. It doesn't change the meaning.



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