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Thread: Gas Plants To Stay Open As California Bows To Energy Reality (open thread)

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    Default Gas Plants To Stay Open As California Bows To Energy Reality (open thread)

    Gas Plants To Stay Open As California Bows To Energy Reality

    open thread

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    https://www.usnews.com/news/us/artic...across-us-west


    We must do something about climate change. Something other than denial.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Micawber View Post
    Gas Plants To Stay Open As California Bows To Energy Reality

    open thread
    I'm guessing it was a Tom (Grajonca) thread people were banned from.

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    It’s always good to see progressives bend the knee to reality lol.
    Coup has started. First of many steps. Impeachment will follow ultimately~WB attorney Mark Zaid, January 2017

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    Quote Originally Posted by Micawber View Post
    Gas Plants To Stay Open As California Bows To Energy Reality

    open thread
    Computer modeling is NOT science, dickhead.
    "I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a storybook, man."
    — Joe Biden on Obama.

    Socialism is just the modern word for monarchy.

    D.C. has become a Guild System with an hierarchy and line of accession much like the Royal Court or priestly classes.

    Private citizens are perfectly able of doing a better job without "apprenticing".

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    Yes and his minions like Sailor won't comment here where Grajonka's banned could respond...

    It seems silly for Grajonka to intentionally draw attn to climate change hotspots. It does not exactly forward his denial agenda.
    We are having new all time record temps all across the state for this time of the year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Micawber View Post
    We must do something about climate change. Something other than denial.
    There's no must involved. We can address it if we choose to. The correct solution isn't more wind and solar. It's building natural gas and nuclear plants along with transitioning to hydrogen as the portable fuel for vehicles, etc., also known as N2N+H.

    Nothing the Left proposes in things like the New Green Deal will work. Trains--even 200 mph ones-- are too slow and expensive for use in the US compared to aircraft. Battery cars are insanely inefficient and impractical outside urban areas. They also require lots of highly polluting heavy metals and other mined materials in their production that other types of vehicle don't.

    If for example we had put the one trillion that Obama squandered on his failed stimulus package into building 50 new nuclear power plants, say one per state, we would have attained a new level of energy independence, gotten rid of coal entirely as an electrical generation source, provided jobs to coal miners mining uranium and thorium, and had it completed by today. End of our CO2 problem. Toss in some cheap natural gas peaking plants for load balancing and we're done. No need for solar and wind whatsoever. We could do this, but it isn't happening because there are too many technical illiterates--particularly in the environmental movement--that are irrationally terrified of all things nuclear because they haven't got a clue about it.

    We could be pushing hydrogen fuel cell technology too. That would get fix the CO2 / vehicle pollution issue completely and hydrogen unlike battery cars, can be fit into existing infrastructure for refueling meaning that the transition to it is smooth and seamless.

    When it comes to anything technical, if you listen to the Left stand by to be f***ed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Micawber View Post
    Gas Plants To Stay Open As California Bows To Energy Reality

    open thread
    They still don't.
    "The atmosphere is among the factors that determines the Earth's atmosphere." --ZenMode
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micawber View Post
    ...deleted unrelated Holy Link...

    We must do something about climate change. Something other than denial.
    Define 'climate change'.
    "The atmosphere is among the factors that determines the Earth's atmosphere." --ZenMode
    "Donald has failed in almost every endeavor he has attempted. " --floridafan
    "Abortion is not a moral issue. " --BidenPresident
    "Propaganda can also be factual." --Flash
    "Even after being vaccinated, you shed virus particles." --Jerome
    "no slavery is forcing another into labor" -archives
    "Evs are much safer from fires" -- Nordberg
    "Abortion has killed no one." -- LurchAddams

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Omar View Post
    It’s always good to see progressives bend the knee to reality lol.
    Unfortunately, they aren't. The SOTC is not energy independent at all. They still must purchase a LOT of electrical energy from outside the SOTC.
    "The atmosphere is among the factors that determines the Earth's atmosphere." --ZenMode
    "Donald has failed in almost every endeavor he has attempted. " --floridafan
    "Abortion is not a moral issue. " --BidenPresident
    "Propaganda can also be factual." --Flash
    "Even after being vaccinated, you shed virus particles." --Jerome
    "no slavery is forcing another into labor" -archives
    "Evs are much safer from fires" -- Nordberg
    "Abortion has killed no one." -- LurchAddams

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    Quote Originally Posted by Micawber View Post
    Yes and his minions like Sailor won't comment here where Grajonka's banned could respond...

    It seems silly for Grajonka to intentionally draw attn to climate change hotspots. It does not exactly forward his denial agenda.
    Define 'climate change'.
    "The atmosphere is among the factors that determines the Earth's atmosphere." --ZenMode
    "Donald has failed in almost every endeavor he has attempted. " --floridafan
    "Abortion is not a moral issue. " --BidenPresident
    "Propaganda can also be factual." --Flash
    "Even after being vaccinated, you shed virus particles." --Jerome
    "no slavery is forcing another into labor" -archives
    "Evs are much safer from fires" -- Nordberg
    "Abortion has killed no one." -- LurchAddams

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    Quote Originally Posted by Micawber View Post
    https://www.usnews.com/news/us/artic...across-us-west


    We must do something about climate change. Something other than denial.
    You lead the way! Stop using energy and live off the grid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Omar View Post
    It’s always good to see progressives bend the knee to reality lol.
    This^

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    Quote Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    There's no must involved. We can address it if we choose to.
    You have to define 'climate change' before you can address it. No one has defined 'climate change', 'global warming', 'greenhouse effect', or 'greenhouse gas' except in terms of one of the other undefined buzzwords. One can't define a word using an undefined word.
    Quote Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    The correct solution isn't more wind and solar. It's building natural gas and nuclear plants along with transitioning to hydrogen as the portable fuel for vehicles, etc., also known as N2N+H.
    Wind is piddle power. So is solar. There are no large power lines coming from these installations (just a simple 7.2kv line). That should tell you something.
    Nothun' wrong with natural gas. Hydrogen as a fuel for cars has a low BTU. Not really a practical fuel for mobile devices like cars. Producing hydrogen is easy enough through electrolysis, but that requires tremendous energy to produce the quantities you're talking about, and also has problems with salts, even in fresh water sources, that are left behind.
    Quote Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    Nothing the Left proposes in things like the New Green Deal will work.
    Hydrogen powered cars was part of the Green Dream. It's just not in the current version of the New Green Deal.

    There are two fuels that are ideal for mobile use:
    Gasoline: with the highest BTU per given volume.
    Kerosene: with the highest BTU per given weight.

    Due to the small fuel tank size in cars and small aircraft, gasoline is favored.
    Due to the weight for the fuel that large aircraft must carry, kerosene is favored (this is also similar to diesel oil, biofuel oils, etc).
    Quote Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    Trains--even 200 mph ones-- are too slow and expensive for use in the US compared to aircraft.
    Particularly in the West and Central United States, where there is a large distance between destinations. The Coast Starlight still runs up and down the west coast, and the Empire Builder still runs from Seattle to Chicago, but neither see a lot of revenue, and must be subsidized by government to stay viable at all. Meanwhile, airlines were making money as private industry, at least until Covid came along.
    Quote Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    Battery cars are insanely inefficient and impractical outside urban areas.
    They are actually pretty efficient. Individual traction motors in the wheels (instead of a central motor, typical of a gasoline car design) performs very well in snow and poor traction as well. They are quiet (too quiet!) and easy to automate motor controls. Their range is similar to about 1/2 to 3/4 of a tankful of a gasoline car. Their big disadvantage is the lengthy recharging time, as opposed to the few minutes to refuel a gasoline car, that makes them impractical for cross country use. There are fast recharging stations, but these cars are limited to central routes to make sure to take any advantage of them, and they have to wait their turn to charge at one of these. Their battery packs are heavy, even the lithium oxide ones, and thus reduce usable load for freight hauling, making electric trucks impractical. It also makes electric aircraft impractical. But yes, efficiency is good on these devices. Conversion of stored battery energy to forward motion is quite good.

    Electric cars are dependent on static (fixed) power sources, such as coal plants, natural gas plants, nuclear plants, hydroelectric plants, oil plants, etc. I call them coal fired cars. Wind and solar are piddle power and do not charge your typical electric car.

    Quote Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    They also require lots of highly polluting heavy metals and other mined materials in their production that other types of vehicle don't.
    All cars do. Aluminum is mined as bauxite in open pit mines. Iron is mined as both open pit and tunnel mines. Lithium is mined typically as open pit mines. Rare earths are mined either as open pit or tunnel mines, or are components of mine tailings from mining something else (like gold or silver). Uranium ore is mined most often as tunnel mines, but some open pit mining of this material is done also now.
    Quote Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    If for example we had put the one trillion that Obama squandered on his failed stimulus package into building 50 new nuclear power plants,
    Why do you want the government dictating what kind of energy people will use? Nah. Leave it up to the market. People will buy what they want in the form they want it in. That's how the coal, oil, natural gas, and even nuclear power really works. Hydroelectric power does require government involvement, since you are talking about major rivers and even some pretty small streams that are public waterways.
    Quote Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    say one per state, we would have attained a new level of energy independence,
    The United States is already energy independent. We export energy to other countries and to the SOTC.
    Quote Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    gotten rid of coal entirely as an electrical generation source,
    Coal is cheap and plentiful. Who gave you the power to dictate that we should eliminate coal?
    Quote Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    provided jobs to coal miners mining uranium and thorium,
    Nope. Uranium is not found in coal mines. Neither is thorium. Different techniques are required to mine these different materials as well. Different refining techniques are also required.
    Quote Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    and had it completed by today.
    You don't want government dictating what kind of energy people can use.
    Quote Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    End of our CO2 problem.
    CO2 is not a problem. It's a gas necessary for life on Earth. It has no capability to warm the Earth. No gas or vapor does.
    Quote Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    Toss in some cheap natural gas peaking plants for load balancing and we're done.
    You don't get to dictate what kind of energy people can use. That's determined by the market.
    Quote Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    No need for solar and wind whatsoever.
    There never was a need for it to begin with, except in some cases where wind power in remote areas can supply water or small amounts of electricity.
    Quote Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    We could do this, but it isn't happening because there are too many technical illiterates--particularly in the environmental movement--that are irrationally terrified of all things nuclear because they haven't got a clue about it.
    People are pretty clueless about nuclear power. They keep envisioning things like Chernobyl (a reactor designed and operated so badly the Russians blew it up and it had no containment), or the destruction of the Tokyo plant due to tsunami (didn't kill anyone except plant workers), or poor operation problems that caused the Three Mile Island 'disaster' (no one was hurt except plant workers).

    Nuclear fuel for these reactors cannot explode like an atomic bomb. They are not purified enough. Waste fuel from these reactors can be put into new reactor designs instead of buried or stored in pools. It's still putting out energy (that's what makes it dangerous to just throw away in a landfill). That energy can be harnessed. Sure you require large amounts of it, but it's 'free' fuel that otherwise is just discarded or stored in special facilities. After use in these lower energy plants, the fuel is completely inert and can be discarded in any landfill.

    Fusion power eludes us. We can build a bomb with it, but a controlled sustained fusion reaction for a power plant is proving to be more difficult than anticipated.

    Meanwhile, we have cheap sources of fuel. Oil and natural gas are renewable fuels also. The Earth is a natural generator for these fuels. They do not come from fossils.

    Quote Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    We could be pushing hydrogen fuel cell technology too.
    No need. We already have it. Hydrogen, however, is a low energy fuel and rather expensive to produce. This is the biggest reason why hydrogen really hasn't taken off in the market.
    Quote Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    That would get fix the CO2 / vehicle pollution issue completely
    CO2 is not a pollutant. It is a naturally occurring gas. That's like calling water or nitrogen a pollutant. Vehicle pollution (such as oxides of nitrogen combining with ozone (produced naturally in the engine), and unburned fuel (due to a sooty burn) can produce smog, but cars today have EGR systems in them, virtually eliminating almost all of the smog problem. FADEC engines reduce the sooty burns too, being a much better method of fuel metering than the carburetor. Today, carbon monoxide (a toxic gas), oxides of nitrogen (sometimes known as NOX), and unburnt fuel going out the exhaust are MUCH less of a problem. Today's gasoline car is really pretty clean. The exhaust from a gasoline car is primarily water and CO2. Neither are a pollutant. Hydrogen cars produce primarily water as their exhaust (though you can have problems with leaking hydrogen pretty easily, considering the size of this molecule and the pressures you must use (making it dangerous to refuel).
    Quote Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    and hydrogen unlike battery cars, can be fit into existing infrastructure for refueling meaning that the transition to it is smooth and seamless.
    Low BTU. High pressures necessary to carry hydrogen fuel for any practical range are dangerous. Leaks are common due to the high pressures and the size of this molecule.
    Quote Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    When it comes to anything technical, if you listen to the Left stand by to be f***ed.
    Quite true. They are willing to discard perfectly good renewable fuels like oil and natural gas in favor of renewable energy sources that aren't practical for cross country mobile use, require time to convert them to mobile use, and do not produce a lot of energy (making wind and solar the most expensive energy sources), and have all this decided by government dictat.
    "The atmosphere is among the factors that determines the Earth's atmosphere." --ZenMode
    "Donald has failed in almost every endeavor he has attempted. " --floridafan
    "Abortion is not a moral issue. " --BidenPresident
    "Propaganda can also be factual." --Flash
    "Even after being vaccinated, you shed virus particles." --Jerome
    "no slavery is forcing another into labor" -archives
    "Evs are much safer from fires" -- Nordberg
    "Abortion has killed no one." -- LurchAddams

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    Quote Originally Posted by Micawber View Post
    Yes and his minions like Sailor won't comment here where Grajonka's banned could respond...

    It seems silly for Grajonka to intentionally draw attn to climate change hotspots. It does not exactly forward his denial agenda.
    We are having new all time record temps all across the state for this time of the year.
    How am I getting dragged into YOUR lack of knowledge about energy, how it is reliably supplied, and how much of it needed? Braindead liberal Californian.

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