Götterdämmerung -- The Twilight of the Gods

[Doc Dutch]

Hello Dutch Uncle,

Ultimately it is the voters who are responsible, and must pay the price of mistakes.

Agreed. Change is slow but it happens.

[Doc Dutch]

TOW like the idea of Chinese shooting Howitzers at us as much as I like that how I know if they did, their cheap bullshit would blow up in their face.

Can someone bring the JPP Narcan over here and hold him down while I reverse whatever drug he ingested this time? Thanks.

Everytime he lies, it just goes to prove he's an immature kid slinging shit from his parent's middle-class home.

[Doc Dutch]

Hello Controlled Opposition,

If we didn't have so many deplorables, DT would never have been able to take advantage of that hatred.

While I agree with that statement, the "why" question is an important key to understanding why that is. Define "deplorable". Is it people who are afraid? Poorly educated? Easily exploited by smart but malicious people?

[Doc Dutch]

Hello Dutch Uncle,



We have to vote for the candidate which will produce the more preferable results.

If we risk letting one which will produce very non-preferable results in then we have no one to blame but ourselves.

No, of course the president does not have sole control over the economy. But sound leadership makes a very big difference over irresponsible leadership.

Agreed with the general principle, but as I've posted several times before, the "vote for the lesser of two evils" strategy isn't working. Each member of each party needs to hold their own party accountable for its leaders. If it doesn't then we end up with corrupt or idiotic politicians.

[PoliTalker]

Hello ThatOwlWoman,

In the article in the OP, did you have a chance to read it? If so, did you see what the author wrote about the rubber shortage in WWII? There is a reason they call the people of my parents' and yours generation The Greatest.

"In 1940, with Europe already ablaze, the United States had a smaller army than either Portugal or Bulgaria. Within four years, 18 million men and women would serve in uniform, with millions more working double shifts in mines and factories that made America, as President Roosevelt promised, the arsenal of democracy.

When the Japanese within six weeks of Pearl Harbor took control of 90 percent of the world’s rubber supply, the U.S. dropped the speed limit to 35 mph to protect tires, and then, in three years, invented from scratch a synthetic-rubber industry that allowed Allied armies to roll over the Nazis. At its peak, Henry Ford’s Willow Run Plant produced a B-24 Liberator every two hours, around the clock. Shipyards in Long Beach and Sausalito spat out Liberty ships at a rate of two a day for four years; the record was a ship built in four days, 15 hours and 29 minutes. A single American factory, Chrysler’s Detroit Arsenal, built more tanks than the whole of the Third Reich."

Can you even begin to imagine if this happened today... the reaction from the Reichtards? "Hell NO, I ain't given up my honkin' huge ass tires for my truck-which-I-don't-need-'cause-I-live-in-a-1800-sq-foot-house-in-the-burbs-and-don't-transport-nuthin-heavier-n-my-fat-wife-and-fat-kids! And I ain't drivin' no pussy 35 mph either! Try n stop me!"

Sigh.

Long ago and on a chat board far away I recall the deplorable mindset's response to calls for conservation when gas prices got so crazy high. Oh no, it was their god-given right to burn up as much gas as they wanted, and just to rub it in one said he just liked to hear the sound of the motor, and he knew that revving it up at a light would 'light up the liberals.' It made him happy to think that what he was doing was making other people sad.

How pathetic. To have a human mind, and be so incapable of finding anything else in life to bring a smile at that moment other than bothering others.

And that's all part of the we/they - winners/losers mindset.

It is a foolish belief that there are these simple divisions between groups, one group being all good, and the other being all bad. Naturally people want to be in the good group. So they make out like the other group is horrible. And this is then used to justify actually being horrible. The reasoning being that if somebody else does something wrong, then that makes it OK for everyone else to then do that wrong thing. Like it isn't wrong any more. Because somebody else did it already and got away with it. Makes it OK. /sarc

That leads to the secondary belief that if you're being bad to bad people, that makes it OK to be bad.

Which is nonsense, of course. It's that belief that got George Floyd killed.

[PoliTalker]

Hello ThatOwlWoman,

Putting on a mask when you go inside a store is not a sacrifice. Not being able to spend Friday nights in a bar with 500 of your closest COVID friends is not a sacrifice. Not being able to go see a movie in a theater is not a sacrifice.

Not being able to be with your loved one in the hospital as he/she breathes their last... *that* is a sacrifice.

Since this whole thing broke wide open, I have not:

Eaten in a restaurant
Gotten take out
Bought any clothes
Been to a bar
Been to a movie
Been to a concert
Been to a sports game
Taken part in any amateur team sports
Done any travel or flying
Been to a large family gathering
Been to a party
Been to a museum
Been to the library
Shopped for groceries during peak hours
Been inside a convenience store
Been in any kind of store for anything not essential.

Now, it's not like I don't miss all those things. I have bought things, contributed to the economy. I bought a TV online and picked it up. They brought it outside to my vehicle. I bought a car without ever setting foot inside their building. They were completely happy to bring all the paperwork outside. More than happy. Everything with masks, sanitizer, untouched brand new pens, as much distancing as possible. Very nice. Happy to do it. And I like the car. American car.

I do miss all those things I'm not doing. But I'm OK without them for a while. All we have to do is buy time. This has been going on since March and it is now August. Those of us who have made it this far without spreading the virus are doing very good. All we have to do is hang in there and buy more time. We have already shown we can do that. Those who have to work in essential jobs and reasonably safe work have to do what they have to do. Bout for the rest of us, we need to keep fighting the virus with everything we've got. Maybe we only have to get to next year. There's a lot of promise in the numerous efforts to produce a safe and effective vaccine.

Maybe we are at the half way point.

It isn't going to be like this forever. All we have to is buy more time. Here at JPP we are lucky. We already have this way of socializing, having discussions. I guess just about everybody has some sort of social media. It had to be a lot worse in 1918. What are we? A bunch of weenies? I call BS! We can DO THIS. We're probably half way done with it. Just hang in there. We'll be fine.

And think of how wonderful it will be when we can safely have gatherings again! Oh, it will be FABULOUS!!!

How precious it will seem!

How much we will appreciate the things we once took for granted.

[PoliTalker]

Hello Dutch Uncle,

Agreed on all points. IMO, with our current level of technology, the best system our species has is a Federal Constitutional Republic government and a regulated capitalist economy. Government taxation funds the safety net for the sick, the elderly and minors plus help those who need a hand to become productive taxpayers.

An aphorism often misattributed to Gandhi (although I think he'd agree with it) is "The measure of a civilization is how it treats its weakest members.”

Hubert Humphrey once said “The moral test of government is how that government treats those who are in the dawn of life, the children; those who are in the twilight of life, the elderly; those who are in the shadows of life, the sick, the needy and the handicapped.”

UK UN Ambassador Matthew Rycroft once said "How a society treats its most vulnerable – whether children, the infirm or the elderly – is always the measure of its humanity. Even more so during instability and conflict. When a society begins to disregard the vulnerable and their rights, instability and conflict will only grow."

Don't know who originated that idea but it certainly is ultimately true.

[PoliTalker]

Hello Dutch Uncle,

Agreed. Change is slow but it happens.

Usually change is slow. Sometimes a lot happens at once.

[PoliTalker]

Hello Dutch Uncle,

While I agree with that statement, the "why" question is an important key to understanding why that is. Define "deplorable". Is it people who are afraid? Poorly educated? Easily exploited by smart but malicious people?

This pretty well sums it up:

The OP link story defines 'deplorable:'

"Evidence of such terminal decadence is the choice that so many Americans made in 2016 to prioritize their personal indignations, placing their own resentments above any concerns for the fate of the country and the world, as they rushed to elect a man whose only credential for the job was his willingness to give voice to their hatreds, validate their anger, and target their enemies, real or imagined. "

[PoliTalker]

Hello Dutch Uncle,

Agreed with the general principle, but as I've posted several times before, the "vote for the lesser of two evils" strategy isn't working. Each member of each party needs to hold their own party accountable for its leaders. If it doesn't then we end up with corrupt or idiotic politicians.

Voting for the lessor is far better than allowing the greater to have access to power.

We cannot have our votes reflect our first choice candidate until we have ranked choice voting. That's what you really want. And I do too. The two-party duopoly fights it. It's time for us to fight back.

The American Anti-Corruption Act would mandate Ranked Choice Voting:

(And correct so many more wrongs...)

"1 Stop political bribery

Make it illegal for politicians to take money from lobbyists.
Politicians get extraordinary sums of money in the form of campaign donations from the special interests who lobby them. In return, politicians create laws favorable to these special interests – even when those laws hurt voters.

Under the American Anti-Corruption Act, people who get paid to lobby cannot donate to politicians.

Ban lobbyist bundling.
Lobbyists regularly bundle together big contributions from their friends and colleagues and deliver them in one lump sum to politicians. This turns lobbyists into major fundraisers, giving politicians an incentive to keep them happy by working political favors.

The Act prohibits lobbyists from bundling contributions.

Close the revolving door.
Lobbyists and special interests routinely offer public officials high-paying lobbying jobs. Politicians and their staff routinely move straight from government to these lucrative lobbying jobs, where they get paid to influence their former colleagues.

The Act stops elected representatives and senior staff from selling off their government power for high-paying lobbying jobs, prohibits them from negotiating jobs while in office, and bars them from paid lobbying activity for several years once they leave.

Prevent politicians from fundraising during working hours.
Most federal politicians spend between 3 and 7 hours a day fundraising from big donors instead of working on issues that matter to voters.

Under the Act, politicians are prevented from raising money during the workday, when they should be serving their constituents.

2 End Secret Money

Immediately disclose political money online.
Current disclosure laws are outdated and broken. Many donations are not disclosed for months, and some are never made available electronically, making it difficult for citizens and journalists to follow the money in our political system.

The Anti-Corruption Act ensures that all significant political fundraising and spending is immediately disclosed online and made easily accessible to the public.

Stop donors from hiding behind secret-money groups.
Elections are being flooded with big money funneled through groups with secret donors. These secretive groups spend money directly to influence elections and make unlimited contributions to super PACs, which run ads to elect and defeat candidates.

Under the Act, any organization that spends meaningful funds on political advertisements is required to file a timely online report disclosing its major donors.

3 Fix Our Broken Elections

End gerrymandering.
Politicians are intentionally drawing the lines around voters in order to guarantee their own re-election and give their political party an unfair advantage.

The Anti-Corruption Act ends gerrymandering by creating independent, fully transparent redistricting commissions that follow strict guidelines to ensure accurate representation for all voters, regardless of political party.

Let all voters participate in open primaries.
By controlling the primaries, the political establishment controls which candidates we can vote on.

The Act makes all candidates for the same office compete in a single, open primary controlled by voters, not the political establishment. This gives voters more control over our elections and more choices at the ballot.

Let voters rank their top candidates, avoid “spoilers.”
Outdated voting systems force voters to choose between the “lesser of two evils” at the ballot box or vote for a “spoiler” candidate.

Under the Act, voters can rank their top candidates, allowing them to support their top choice without fear of inadvertently helping elect the other party’s candidate. If their top choice isn’t going to win, their vote transfers to their second choice, and so on. This makes it easier to elect independent-minded candidates who aren’t beholden to establishment special interests.

Automatic voter registration.
Our voter rolls and registration systems are outdated, error-prone, and costly. New and proven systems can save taxpayer money and ensure that all eligible voters are able to participate on Election Day.

The Act automatically registers all interested eligible voters when they interact with government agencies – whether it’s when they go to the DMV, get a hunting license, apply for food assistance, or sign up for the national guard. Voters can always opt-out from being registered. Information is transmitted electronically and securely to a central source maintained by the state.

Vote at home or at the polls.
Election Day is a mess. Forcing voters to take time off from work and their families to stand in long lines on a Tuesday is ineffective, insecure, and outdated.

The Act improves voter service by sending ballots to voters at home and allowing them to mail it back on their own timeframe, or drop it off at a professionally-staffed voting center. Voters can still vote in person or receive assistance at a voting center.

Reasonable term limits.
When elected officials are allowed to become career politicians, our elections become uncompetitive and new ideas have a harder time being heard.

The Act sets reasonable term limits of 18 years total at each level of government, so that candidates focus on public service instead of staying in office.

Change how elections are funded.
Running a political campaign is expensive, but few Americans can afford to donate to political campaigns. That makes politicians dependent upon – and therefore responsive to – a tiny fraction of special-interest donors.

The Act offers every voter a small credit they can use to make a political donation with no out-of-pocket expense. Candidates and political groups are only eligible to receive these credits if they agree to fundraise solely from small donors. The Act also empowers political action committees that only take donations from small donors, giving everyday people a stronger voice in our elections.

4 Enforce the Rules

Crack down on super PACs.
As a result of the Supreme Court’s Citizens United ruling, the Supreme Court ruled that super PACs can spend unlimited money influencing elections, so long as they do not coordinate directly with candidate campaigns. Since then, there has been tremendous coordination between campaigns and their super PACs, making a mockery of the “independence” the Supreme Court said must exist.

The American Anti-Corruption Act enforces the Supreme Court’s mandate by fixing the rules aimed at preventing and punishing super PAC coordination.

Eliminate lobbyist loopholes.
The definition of “lobbyist” is weak and outdated. As a result, lobbyists regularly avoid disclosure, and former politicians and their staff can receive big money to influence politicians without formally registering as lobbyists.

The Act prevents lobbyists from skirting the rules by strengthening the definition of lobbying and penalizing lobbyists who fail to register.

Strengthen anti-corruption enforcement.
Agencies routinely fail to enforce the anti-corruption rules that already exist due to partisan deadlock – and when they are able to act, they often lack the enforcement tools necessary to uphold the law. The result is an elections system where even lax rules can be skirted or broken with impunity.

The Act strengthens enforcement of anti-corruption laws by overhauling the broken Federal Election Commission and giving prosecutors the tools they need to combat corruption."

[Doc Dutch]

Hello Dutch Uncle,

Do know who originated that idea but it certainly is ultimately true.

No, I don't know but truisms often stick with a society no matter how many people say it in different ways.

Judging a society is based on the morals of the judge. I could judge a society from a warrior point of view: kill all the deformed babies and banish any person over 18 who can't participate in battle. Wars are won by never giving mercy; destroy all who oppose you. All that matters is to win and to die honorably if we lose.

OR I can judge it from a humane, Christian, Buddhist point of view: freedom to live one's life without being forced, care for others, strive for the betterment of one's life, one's family and humanity as a whole.

Both the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States share the latter point of view:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

[Doc Dutch]

Hello Dutch Uncle,
Usually change is slow. Sometimes a lot happens at once.

I should have phrased that better; human societies and turning large ships is slow. Like a plague, impact event or supervolcano, change can occur rapidly in both nature and society. For the most part, however, where humans are concerned, it's slow. People can see it coming if they are looking for it.

[Doc Dutch]

Hello Dutch Uncle,

This pretty well sums it up:

Disagreed for two reasons: It doesn't explain "why" people feel that way and, second, explain that hatred and selfishness is self-destructive. If so, why are so many people seeking this? Saying "They're all haters. Fuck them" then throwing one's hands up and walking away does and answers nothing. Without answers, we can't move forward.

[Bill]

Well said and agreed. About 60% of Americans belong to one of the two major parties. They are the ones directly responsible for selecting their nominees....with 2016 being a noted exception due to DNC corruption and HIllary's Foundation money. The fact the best candidate the Democrats could find was Biden is shocking enough but the fact the Republicans continue to applaud Trump's nuttiness is even more shocking.

We all know about getting the government we deserve so now all we can do is stay informed, vote and hope our nation can unfuck itself in our lifetimes.

I see that as similar to the comedian, laughing hardy on the outside, & dying silently inside......

[Bill]

Hello Bill,



[video=youtube;xZbKHDPPrrc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZbKHDPPrrc[/]

Sly did a great version as well....