Free will and original sin

[Doc Dutch]

Maybe I just do not understand the Calvinist branch of Protestantism, but it seems so bloody negative and pessimistic about the human condition and free will.

I say to each their own, but the fire and brimstone act kind of freaks me out!

Agreed. How can God be all knowing, all powerful and all loving yet plays favorites and sends dumbasses to Hell for eternity? It doesn't fit.

[Concart]

All religions are the product of man's unique ability to recognize his mortality and find an out. Throughout history, religious beliefs have been driven by ignorance. We no longer believe an eclipse is caused by a dragon eating the sun. Current religious beliefs when viewed as history will prove just as ignorant. Spirituality is, IMHO, not religion. Very different things. All religious dogma is BS.

[Concart]

Agreed. How can God be all knowing, all powerful and all loving yet plays favorites and sends dumbasses to Hell for eternity? It doesn't fit.

If you haven't seen West World, you should watch it. A fascinating examination of free will and choices.

[Doc Dutch]

If you haven't seen West World, you should watch it. A fascinating examination of free will and choices.

I do watch it. I've also been a SF fan since the 1960s. The topic is a good one.

[Concart]

I do watch it. I've also been a SF fan since the 1960s. The topic is a good one.

Love the show, just finished season 3. It's one I have to watch without my wife. She can't get past the idea that it's a show about robots. Which it absolutely is not. Our ven diagram has a pretty large intersection, but hers doesn't include this....... and mine doesn't include 90 day fiance .

[Iolo/Penderyn]

I suppose that, under any belief system, people notice that humans make wonderful plans and then balls them up because of some failing in them. Original sin was one way of expressing this, and I don't think the concept 'free will' will survive much close examination of human behaviour. Our hands are moving, so to speak, long before we come to any decision.

[Doc Dutch]

Love the show, just finished season 3. It's one I have to watch without my wife. She can't get past the idea that it's a show about robots. Which it absolutely is not. Our ven diagram has a pretty large intersection, but hers doesn't include this....... and mine doesn't include 90 day fiance .

ROFL. Mine neither. We do watch some shows together, but I don't share her love for TLC "reality" shows and she's not into SF, Horror or war.

The Big Three; Heinlein, Asimov and Clarke, plus Bradbury all wrote stories questioning what is "human" and self-awareness in other creatures and machines on the level of human beings.

[Cypress]

I suppose that, under any belief system, people notice that humans make wonderful plans and then balls them up because of some failing in them. Original sin was one way of expressing this, and I don't think the concept 'free will' will survive much close examination of human behaviour. Our hands are moving, so to speak, long before we come to any decision.

It's possible free will is an illusion, and that we live in a deterministic reality. Smarter people than me have to sort it out.

[Doc Dutch]

It's possible free will is an illusion, and that we live in a deterministic reality. Smarter people than me have to sort it out.

If we do live in a deterministic reality, then everything thought about "God" is a lie. We're just meat robots operating with the programming of a god, gods or random chance.

[Iolo/Penderyn]

It's possible free will is an illusion, and that we live in a deterministic reality. Smarter people than me have to sort it out.

Right - I think we'll decide as conditioned, probably!

[Cypress]

All religions are the product of man's unique ability to recognize his mortality and find an out. Throughout history, religious beliefs have been driven by ignorance. We no longer believe an eclipse is caused by a dragon eating the sun. Current religious beliefs when viewed as history will prove just as ignorant. Spirituality is, IMHO, not religion. Very different things. All religious dogma is BS.

I do not think it is limited to conventional religious thought. Plato, the pagan, made the immortal soul one of the cornerstones of his philosophy.

I might be wrong about this, but the transition to conventional religion during the Axial Age was first and foremost humanity's way of coming to terms with individuality and a personal code of ethics - a search for a meaning to this life on a personal level. The Brahmanistic, Vedic, and Confucian traditions certainly did not concern themselves with the salvation of a personal soul.

[Cypress]

If we do live in a deterministic reality, then everything thought about "God" is a lie. We're just meat robots operating with the programming of a god, gods or random chance.

Determinism kind of freaks me out too

[Doc Dutch]

Determinism kind of freaks me out too

Determinism requires a "god" or supernatural power to control events. I disagree with it. The only way it could be logically explained, IMO, is through the Fourth Dimension AKA Time. People see Time like a 35mm movie: one frame at a time and only moving forward. The reality is that all time exists simultaneously like looking at the entire 35mm movie as it sits in a can.

In that respect, our "fates" are already "determined" because our deaths and life events would be known to anything that can view it in the Fourth Dimension. That said, the viewer can't make a person's life go one way or another. The viewer is just an observer and not in control of that person's fate or life events.

[Concart]

ROFL. Mine neither. We do watch some shows together, but I don't share her love for TLC "reality" shows and she's not into SF, Horror or war.

The Big Three; Heinlein, Asimov and Clarke, plus Bradbury all wrote stories questioning what is "human" and self-awareness in other creatures and machines on the level of human beings.

We watch 'The Expanse' together. I win Great authors. Thumbs up.

[Doc Dutch]

We watch 'The Expanse' together. I win Great authors. Thumbs up.

Another great show but I haven't seen the latest season....haven't finished Westworld either.