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Thread: Free will and original sin

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    Default Free will and original sin

    I really cannot accept the Calvinist Protestant interpretation of humans bearing the guilt and stain of original sin, the theology of predestination, and their generally negative view of humanity the human condition. I will always actually feel like Eastern Christianity generally has a more positive perspective on the human condition, a more tenable theology on the question of free will.

    Eastern Orthodox Christians say the goal of human life is union with the divine, a process they call theosis. The essence of this process is the ongoing effort to be like Christ. For most, it will take an entire life’s work. Monks have an audacious calling to seek this divine union as a mystical state in this life. But complete theosis can still only come upon death, when one’s bodily existence is subsumed within the life of God.

    Most Western Christians, on the other hand, imagine an insurmountable distance between humans and God. Maybe God can touch someone across that gap, but a person can’t become one with God, in part because of the stain of original sin.

    In the West, Augustine came up with the predominant way of talking about original sin: as a permanent defect that all humans inherited through Adam and Eve’s mistakes in the Garden of Eden. But most of his writings were not available in Greek until the 13th century and the Orthodox came up with a different take on things.

    The Orthodox say Adam and Eve’s disobedience interrupted the process of spiritual maturation that God had planned for them. Other people might deserve God’s punishment, but that’s because of their own sins, not because the inherited the stain of original sin. And the natural human tendency is to move toward God, not to turn away from him.

    The Orthodox don’t have as much angst about the paradox of divine sovereignty and free will. To them, free will is actually a sign of our imperfection; if we were perfect, we wouldn’t need any choice, because we would always know what is good.

    These differences help explain the intellectual reasons why the Eastern Orthodox world has never had a Reformation. Eastern Christians do fight over theology, but in general, they are more comfortable with paradox and mystery.



    Source credit: Molly Worthen, PhD. Religious Historian, University of North Carolina

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    Most people have accepted 'The Theory of Evolution' and don't spend a lot of time wasting it on your concept of 'Original Sin'.
    You'd have to be REAL STUPID to teach your children that they are Sinners.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Most people have accepted 'The Theory of Evolution' and don't spend a lot of time wasting it on your concept of 'Original Sin'.
    You'd have to be REAL STUPID to teach your children that they are Sinners.
    Evolution has nothing to do with spirituality, or even ethics.
    One would have to be pretty stupid to confuse the two.
    "Those who vote decide nothing. Those who count the vote decide everything." Joseph Stalin
    The USA has lost WWIV to China with no other weapons but China Virus and some cash to buy democrats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Celticguy View Post
    Evolution has nothing to do with spirituality, or even ethics.
    One would have to be pretty stupid to confuse the two.
    Do YOU accept the 'Theory of Original Sin'? THAT was the point of my response. No one is 'confusing' anything here ... other than YOU.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Do YOU accept the 'Theory of Original Sin'? THAT was the point of my response. No one is 'confusing' anything here ... other than YOU.
    Learn how to write then
    "Those who vote decide nothing. Those who count the vote decide everything." Joseph Stalin
    The USA has lost WWIV to China with no other weapons but China Virus and some cash to buy democrats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Celticguy View Post
    Evolution has nothing to do with spirituality, or even ethics.
    One would have to be pretty stupid to confuse the two.
    Well, consider who you are responding to. lol
    "Conservatism is the blind and fear-filled worship of dead radicals." -- Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Most people have accepted 'The Theory of Evolution' and don't spend a lot of time wasting it on your concept of 'Original Sin'.
    You'd have to be REAL STUPID to teach your children that they are Sinners.
    Original Sin by itself is enough to ignore Christianity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jacksonsprat22 View Post
    Original Sin by itself is enough to ignore Christianity.
    Agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jacksonsprat22 View Post
    Original Sin by itself is enough to ignore Christianity.
    Teaching your children that they are born "bad" and need to believe in a mythological figure to avoid damnation is akin to child abuse, IMO. Children must be taught moral behavior, of course. But that can be done w/o loading them with guilt over a false belief.
    "Conservatism is the blind and fear-filled worship of dead radicals." -- Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatOwlWoman View Post
    Teaching your children that they are born "bad" and need to believe in a mythological figure to avoid damnation is akin to child abuse, IMO. Children must be taught moral behavior, of course. But that can be done w/o loading them with guilt over a false belief.
    I was taught that. Took me a very long time to see how horrible and...unchristian the dogma is. Why does God hate me?!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jacksonsprat22 View Post
    I was taught that. Took me a very long time to see how horrible and...unchristian the dogma is. Why does God hate me?!
    :~( How did you work past that?

    I was raised Lutheran. Mom tried to soften the original sin blow by blaming it all on Adam and Eve but in the end it all boiled down to: You are a bad person and God is watching you and knows when you fuck up, so you better pray for forgiveness every single day. Bah.
    Years later I had a bumper sticker that said "Born right the first time."
    "Conservatism is the blind and fear-filled worship of dead radicals." -- Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Most people have accepted 'The Theory of Evolution' and don't spend a lot of time wasting it on your concept of 'Original Sin'.
    You'd have to be REAL STUPID to teach your children that they are Sinners.
    Right, that is why I align more with the eastern tradition - there is no concept of an inherited stain of original sin, we have free will, and are responsible only for our own sins. I know exactly zero eastern Orthodox Christians who tell their children they are sinners. That is what scares me actually about Calvinists and Puritans! As to evolution, I have a science background I rarely discuss, and my current favorite fossil is tiktaalik!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    Right, that is why I align more with the eastern tradition - there is no concept of an inherited stain of original sin, we have free will, and are responsible only for our own sins. I know exactly zero eastern Orthodox Christians who tell their children they are sinners. That is what scares me actually about Calvinists and Puritans! As to evolution, I have a science background I rarely discuss, and my current favorite fossil is tiktaalik!
    I'm sure many Intellectual Giants debate the differences between the Sunnis and the Shias, and whether Paradise really has 72 virgins. I'm not one of those.
    I view teaching children that ancient Mythology is 'REAL' ... is Child Abuse. I'll let you and the other 'Believers' discuss the Merits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Most people have accepted 'The Theory of Evolution' and don't spend a lot of time wasting it on your concept of 'Original Sin'.
    You'd have to be REAL STUPID to teach your children that they are Sinners.
    Timely statement...with all them enlightened ascended master baitors rioting.


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    Buddhism says: No Nirvana until Samsara is stopped.
    Samsara = the repetious cycle of birth & Death & birth & Death & birth & Death & birth & Death & birth & Death & birth & Death*** et al.

    Nirvana = extinction of one's own soul [atma becomes annatma]



    ***due to duality as basis of material natures' ying-yang structure...it's called "duality" ---ya can't have one opposite without the constant presence of it's concomitant (other) opposite.

    duality = the constant inseparable presence of opposites [ie protons and electrons]


    IF YOU TAKE A BIRTH AGAIN YOU ARE CARRYING THE KARMA [works] FROM THE PROCEEDING LIFETIME.

    IF YOU TAKE A BIRTH AGAIN IN FUTURE, YOU ARE NOT YET WITHOUT SIN [KARMA].


    Damn atheists think they will achieve nirvana simply by their dying, out-doing years of a monk's journey.

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