Iolo/Penderyn (07-06-2020), PoliTalker (06-24-2020)
Well said. I enjoyed the discussion thank you PoliTalker. So do you honestly feel Joe Biden will help heal the racial divide moreso than Donald Trump if elected in November?
I agree about Congress.They pass what the rich want. They are actually all on the same side and only work for the corporations and top 1% in this country. Our news outlets are controlled by those same corporations which is where you get your fake news that puts on this con that Dems and Republicans are going at each other’s throats. The only purpose in that con is to get the people to pick a side and hence actually go at each other’s throats while the corporations and the 1% continue to fuck us out of our rights and our money.
Iolo/Penderyn (07-06-2020), PoliTalker (06-24-2020)
Hello Triplelefthook,
Thank you. I also very much enjoy discussing this with you as well, Triplelefthook.
Biden will certainly be better about healing the racial divide. But he won't be much better about ending the Class War, which is a major problem in race relations. At least with Biden we will get far more honest leadership. He's smart. Biden is an experienced politician just like McConnell, Pelosi, all the rest. Savvy politicians go with the political momentum. That's why nearly all the remaining Republicans are bending to DT's will. The one reason is that DT has this support of the people. That's what gives him the power to do the things he does. IF Biden is as smart as I think he is, he will jump onto this race relations bandwagon and ride that power not only into the WH, but much further. Yes, racial relations will improve with Biden, but unless the people demand Democracy with as great a movement as BLM then we will continue to have an oligarchy under Biden.
The challenge for America is to figure out how to ignite the passion for the Class War struggle that equals the passion for the Racial tension. I just don't see a lot of people jumping onto that bandwagon yet. I have spent years saying this and it falls upon deaf ears. We just need more people to emphasize it. Far more people.
Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.
Iolo/Penderyn (07-06-2020)
Last night I watched "The Gangs of New York" again. The 1863 New York draft riots played a key part of the movie and raised an important part of history. One reason why the Civil War still raises issues is because many of the same problems still exist; Federal law trumping citizen rights, elitism, the use of Federal force against Americans, immigration.
It proved Lincoln's War started the draft; unprecedented in US history.
It pointed out that New York also thought about seceding because the war and loss of business with the South was crippling them.
It raised the ugly head of elitism since the rich could buy their way out of the draft whereas the poor were stuck with going to war.
It used Federal troops to quell the rioting resulting in the deaths of American citizens. The official death toll was 119 but the true number could be over 1200 since many of the dead were Irish immigrants who were considered on the level of African-Americans by Northern racists so leaders didn't give a shit about them. Irish immigrants were pouring in by the thousands and were considered as expendable as yesterday's newspaper.
https://www.history.com/topics/ameri...ar/draft-riots
The New York Draft Riots occurred in July 1863, when the anger of working-class New Yorkers over a new federal draft law during the Civil War sparked five days of some of the bloodiest and most destructive rioting in U.S. history. Hundreds of people were killed, many more seriously injured, and African-Americans were often the target of the rioters’ violence....
...Facing a dire shortage of manpower in early 1863, Lincoln’s government passed a strict new conscription law, which made all male citizens between 20 and 35 and all unmarried men between 35 and 45 subject to military duty.
Though all eligible men were entered into a lottery, they could buy their way out of harm’s way by hiring a substitute or paying $300 to the government (roughly $5,800 today).
At the time, that sum was the yearly salary for the average American worker, making avoiding the draft impossible for all but the wealthiest of men. Compounding the issue, African Americans were exempt from the draft, as they were not considered citizens.
"Hatred is a failure of imagination" - Graham Greene, "The Power and the Glory"
PoliTalker (07-02-2020)
The point being that ideals and circumstances of the time where quite different. It's silly for someone to hold the South to 21st Century standard then give New York a pass because "it was the times". Note that New York was on the verge of succeeding too for the same reason as other states: Their economic welfare.
"Hatred is a failure of imagination" - Graham Greene, "The Power and the Glory"
Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.
Last edited by Hermes Thoth; 07-02-2020 at 08:21 AM.
Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.
Doc Dutch (07-02-2020)
Hello Dutch Uncle,
If all the States seceded from the Union there would be no more USA.
If the Southern States could have gotten the Northern States to secede then the Southern States would not have had to secede, and they could have then dominated the federal government and ensured their precious slavery would never be outlawed.
Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.
Doc Dutch (07-06-2020)
Names would change but the people would remain the same. A lot of things that shaped the US would still exist. Even if Lincoln hadn't violated the Constitution and invaded Virginia, I doubt the split would have lasted long. Too much money to be made working together. At some point a "Reunification" movement would have begun. The Civil War was known to be "brother fighting brother". A peaceful split would have seen families still split and they'd want to reunite just like Germany did after the Cold War.
As for slavery, it was dying out too due to Christian ideals in the US. Something the Lefties are always bitching about, but it was the backbone of abolitionism. Technology would have made slaves obsolete and too costly the same way tractors and columbines made horses and oxen obsolete for farming.
"Hatred is a failure of imagination" - Graham Greene, "The Power and the Glory"
Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.
There was far more job creation in the North.
Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.
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