"Trump sees a ‘rigged election’ ahead"

[Flash]

Apples and oranges. The North Carolina House race was systematic election fraud perpetrated by the Republican candidate, and not voter fraud.

Systematic election fraud is what is most feared, especially using mail-in ballots, because it affects a greater number of votes. But even individual voter fraud is sometimes systematic fraud organized by those involved in administering the election (usually in heavily one-party precincts).

Fraud attempting to influence the election outcome is equally harmful whether done by individuals or organized efforts.

[Concart]

Systematic election fraud is what is most feared, especially using mail-in ballots, because it affects a greater number of votes. But even individual voter fraud is sometimes systematic fraud organized by those involved in administering the election (usually in heavily one-party precincts).

Fraud attempting to influence the election outcome is equally harmful whether done by individuals or organized efforts.

By definition that is not individual voter fraud. And what you describe is again basically non-existent. More legal voters are denied the right to vote due to voter ID laws than illegal voters prevented from voting. It isn't even close. Voter ID laws are intended to suppress the votes of minorities, poor people, and the elderly.

[Celticguy]

Do you have trouble reading a calendar? Do you know what year it is?

Doesnt matter what year, dems fo it routinely this uh s just tge latest to come to justice.

[Flash]

By definition that is not individual voter fraud. And what you describe is again basically non-existent. More legal voters are denied the right to vote due to voter ID laws than illegal voters prevented from voting. It isn't even close. Voter ID laws are intended to suppress the votes of minorities, poor people, and the elderly.

My point was simply that individual voter fraud or systematic election fraud are equally as harmful. One may be less prevalent than the other, but they both seek to undermine the election.

There have been very few cases of people being denied the vote because they didn't have an ID. And, those who couldn't vote qualified for the ID, they just didn't bother to get one. Even those people are allowed to vote provisionally in many states.

We neither one know how many people were denied the vote because of ID compared to being prevented from voting illegally. I think both are very small. That election/voter fraud database showed more "voter impersonation" cases than I would have guessed, but the total is still very small.

Regardless of the intention of Voter ID laws, they do not seem to be meeting that goal. Why would Republicans want to limit the votes of elderly--they are the most reliable Republican voters. Local news sources investigating Voter ID effects on election day found many precincts virtually ignoring the ID requirement and allowing people to vote.

I think the 2018 election voter turnout disproved any voter suppression (or gerrymandering) claims preventing Democratic success. All they had to do was to turn out and vote.

[Concart]

My point was simply that individual voter fraud or systematic election fraud are equally as harmful. One may be less prevalent than the other, but they both seek to undermine the election.

There have been very few cases of people being denied the vote because they didn't have an ID. And, those who couldn't vote qualified for the ID, they just didn't bother to get one. Even those people are allowed to vote provisionally in many states.

We neither one know how many people were denied the vote because of ID compared to being prevented from voting illegally. I think both are very small. That election/voter fraud database showed more "voter impersonation" cases than I would have guessed, but the total is still very small.

Regardless of the intention of Voter ID laws, they do not seem to be meeting that goal. Why would Republicans want to limit the votes of elderly--they are the most reliable Republican voters. Local news sources investigating Voter ID effects on election day found many precincts virtually ignoring the ID requirement and allowing people to vote.

I think the 2018 election voter turnout disproved any voter suppression (or gerrymandering) claims preventing Democratic success. All they had to do was to turn out and vote.

We are mostly in agreement, actually. Where I would part with you is the impact of voter ID laws on suppressing the vote. I think there is a significant number of people who have difficulty getting the needed ID. I hope some studies are done on the impact. That being said, I agree that 2018 was demonstrative of what happens when democrats are motivated to vote.

[Concart]

Doesnt matter what year, dems fo it routinely this uh s just tge latest to come to justice.

No, Dems don't 'do this routinely'. In fact the list that was provided of cases, which was really interesting, had just as many people who violated the law to vote for a Republican, at least in cases where the party affiliation was mentioned.

[Flash]

We are mostly in agreement, actually. Where I would part with you is the impact of voter ID laws on suppressing the vote. I think there is a significant number of people who have difficulty getting the needed ID. I hope some studies are done on the impact. That being said, I agree that 2018 was demonstrative of what happens when democrats are motivated to vote.

I have done a lot of researching and have found no reporting of those turned away for no ID. Many states have numerous forms of ID. Texas has 7 acceptable forms of ID and anyone can get a free state ID. For all those over 65 or disabled they qualify for voting by mail where no Voter ID is needed, so that takes care of all elderly voters where mail-in ballots are more convenient for them.

I did find one 90+ year-old veteran in the Houston paper who could not vote, but he was eligible for multiple types of ID. He just did not know about them and did not get one.

I think a bigger issue is voter registration. As long as you check the U. S. citizen box they have to issue you the registration unless they have proof otherwise, and there is no real enforcement mechanism to check these.

When people are sent a jury summons many say the are not eligible because they are not citizens; yet, they are registered voters. We have no information about the number of non-citizens who vote, but a Texas woman who was a legal resident was given six years for voting in the primary and general election.

Before I retired from teaching I gave my students extra credit for getting a voter registration certificate. One summer two Chinese sisters presented me with their voter registration cards saying "we're not citizens, but..."