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Thread: I'll leave this here

  1. #196 | Top
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash View Post
    It explains everything only if a person accepts simplistic explanations that some evil force is to blame for all the world's problems. It saves us the time of having to learn more complicated explanations.

    Marxism served as the master for many who accepted the evil force explanation until they saw how it worked and abandoned it in most nations. Even places like China have made major modifications to more private ownership and free market reforms. I don't see any worker control in Venequela.
    I've enjoyed reading the exchange and maybe my knowledge of history is lacking here but when has worker control ever existed in any country? I look in my lifetime and we saw the failure of Eastern European Communism, Chinese communism, Cuba, Venezuela etc. To your point about China they still have a Communist government structure but once they implemented free market reforms they brought hundreds of millions of people out of poverty. (Not that I'm suggesting state sponsored capitalism like they have). Even progressives in the U.S. want to be like the small Scandinavian countries but those countries flirted with socialism and it failed and they went back to free markets (just along with higher taxes and more generous welfare state).

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    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    I've enjoyed reading the exchange and maybe my knowledge of history is lacking here but when has worker control ever existed in any country? I look in my lifetime and we saw the failure of Eastern European Communism, Chinese communism, Cuba, Venezuela etc. To your point about China they still have a Communist government structure but once they implemented free market reforms they brought hundreds of millions of people out of poverty. (Not that I'm suggesting state sponsored capitalism like they have). Even progressives in the U.S. want to be like the small Scandinavian countries but those countries flirted with socialism and it failed and they went back to free markets (just along with higher taxes and more generous welfare state).
    I'm not sure when workers exercised control, but whenever it was "we" destroyed it with "our" murder gangs. It more likely was some kind of experiment in union control or more limited example like early Soviet workers councils, Seattle (1919), etc. Stuff from Howard Zinn's Marxist "A People's History of the United States."
    Last edited by Flash; 04-02-2020 at 05:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    I've enjoyed reading the exchange and maybe my knowledge of history is lacking here but when has worker control ever existed in any country? I look in my lifetime and we saw the failure of Eastern European Communism, Chinese communism, Cuba, Venezuela etc. To your point about China they still have a Communist government structure but once they implemented free market reforms they brought hundreds of millions of people out of poverty. (Not that I'm suggesting state sponsored capitalism like they have). Even progressives in the U.S. want to be like the small Scandinavian countries but those countries flirted with socialism and it failed and they went back to free markets (just along with higher taxes and more generous welfare state).
    It hasn't. Socialism, Marxism and Communism are interesting ideals that always fail above the tribal/village level. IMO, mainly due to human nature as in the saying "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely".

    That said, Labor and Management are symbiotic just like Left and Right are symbiotic. If either is too powerful, the symbiosis breaks down and the organisms begin to die.

    Carl Sagan once said "An organism at war with itself is doomed". If a corporation or a nation are thought of as an organism, then when it wars on itself such labor and management crushing each other or one crushing the other, then it will die. The UAW in the 1970s is an example of labor killing the corporation. What we are seeing in America now is management's dominance of labor and reaping the vast majority of the fruits for itself is also killing the corporations.

    God bless America and those who defend our Constitution.

    "Hatred is a failure of imagination" - Graham Greene, "The Power and the Glory"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash View Post
    It explains everything only if a person accepts simplistic explanations that some evil force is to blame for all the world's problems. It saves us the time of having to learn more complicated explanations.

    Marxism served as the master for many who accepted the evil force explanation until they saw how it worked and abandoned it in most nations. Even places like China have made major modifications to more private ownership and free market reforms. I don't see any worker control in Venequela.
    Rubbish - nothing to do with evil - simply evolution, obviously. Just as feudalism replaced earlier systems and was itself replaced by capitalism, so capitalism must be replaced if the species is to survive. Marxism, like Christianity, has long been abandoned by most capitalist states because it lacks conviction as an excuse for robbing those who do the work. If you supposed there was workers' control in Venezuela you are out of your tiny mind, matey. See how the brainwashing works? You just ignore everything that doesn't suit your 'opinion'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Penderyn View Post
    If you supposed there was workers' control in Venezuela you are out of your tiny mind, matey. See how the brainwashing works? You just ignore everything that doesn't suit your 'opinion'.
    That was exactly my point. You said socialism was control by the workers, but that sure isn't true in Venezuela, China, North Korea, Cuba, or any other socialist nation including the former Soviet Union or Eastern bloc nations.

    Nobody is brainwashed when they state facts about socialism which you apparently agree with about Venezuela. You've gone from "worker control" to agreeing with my point.

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    [QUOTE=Flash;3573896]That was exactly my point. You said socialism was control by the workers, but that sure isn't true in Venezuela, China, North Korea, Cuba, or any other socialist nation including the former Soviet Union or Eastern bloc nations.

    Nobody is brainwashed when they state facts about socialism which you apparently agree with about Venezuela. You've gone from "worker control" to agreeing with my point.[/

    Kid, try listening hard: There are currently only capitalist states in the world, whatever they chose to call themselves. I have said this many times, but your brain is too well-washed to retain it. They may call themselves Christian, Socialist or Uncle Tom Cobleigh, but they all exist by selling on the world market and robbing the people who produce what they sell. Listen, child: Venezuela, like the USA, North Korea and your Empire is C-A-P-I-T-A-L-I-S-T. Got that? Socialism is the political rule of those who do the work, and your shithole is a particularly obvious example of plutocracy. All capitalists will unite to murder those who want to set up socialism, obviously.
    Last edited by Iolo/Penderyn; 04-06-2020 at 05:40 AM.

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