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Thread: Jesus and Siddhartha Gautama

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    Quote Originally Posted by StoneByStone View Post
    So tell me what specific Western ideas come from the Bible, the Catholic Church, or Christian tradition.

    Here are some that do not come from any of those things, but rather come from the Enlightenment: Democracy, checks and balances, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, Abolitionism, equality before the law.
    Following up: I am obliged for the civil exchange about an interesting and scholarly topic. I am always surprised at how message board banter drifts towards malicious gossip, petty grudges, character defamation, obsession, and trivial mediocrity

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    Following up: I am obliged for the civil exchange about an interesting and scholarly topic. I am always surprised at how message board banter drifts towards malicious gossip, petty grudges, character defamation, obsession, and trivial mediocrity
    I've been studying the same thing for several years on political forums. IMHO, it's because they come with both preset agendas and are overly-emotional, all to often, emotionally unstable.

    In this particular case, he came here to hate religion and he won't stop hating religion. No one here can make him stop hating religion. He cannot be reasoned with because he is emotionally set to hate religion and emotion never listens to reason.

    That said, why bother with these poor souls who hate so much? I use them as a springboard to discuss the issue in general, mostly, discuss the issues with others who are cooler, saner and better educated. Obviously that's not him. LOL
    God bless America and those who defend our Constitution.

    "Hatred is a failure of imagination" - Graham Greene, "The Power and the Glory"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Uncle View Post
    Agreed. The "connections" are self-evident. FWIW, many of the Founders, specifically Jefferson and Franklin were Deists with Christian roots. No doubt they appreciated the wisdom of Jesus even if they did not accept his divinity as the "son of God". From another point of view, we are all children of God and Jesus was just a little wiser than most.

    Modern Christians believe in the power of prayer because they believe God will interfere into their lives if they are just and pious. The "every sparrow's fall" taken to an extreme**. Deists accept that God exists but doesn't interfere. Why should he? Life is temporary and eternity awaits. It's not how long we live that matters, but what we do with our lives while we're here.




    **Matthew 10:27-31
    To some extent, I understand the sentiment. An atheist who thinks of themselves as the prodigy of Voltaire, Jefferson, and Adam Smith will find it difficult to acknowledge how much of our legacy is associated with the convergence of western civilization and Christianity.

    My own opinion has evolved over the years. At this time, I cannot imagine what western civilization, and my own consciousness and ethical maxims would look like without the fusion and legacy of Plato, Pericles, Jesus, Augustine, the Gospels, Thomas Aquinas, Voltaire, Adam Smith, Newton, Lincoln, Einstein, et al.

    All of it, collectively, fused, and co-mingled, is our legacy and influences us in ways we generally do not think about.n

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Uncle View Post
    I asked and you trundled off into the weeds. No worries. If you don't want to discuss it, that's fine. It's a free country.
    You're the one who brought up irrelevant issues. Here is where I started:

    Jesus clearly had the intent of expanding the religion that His Father started with the Jews.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    To some extent, I understand the sentiment. An atheist who thinks of themselves as the prodigy of Voltaire, Jefferson, and Adam Smith will find it difficult to acknowledge how much of our legacy is associated with the convergence of western civilization and Christianity.

    My own opinion has evolved over the years. At this time, I cannot imagine what western civilization, and my own consciousness and ethical maxims would look like without the fusion and legacy of Plato, Pericles, Jesus, Augustine, the Gospels, Thomas Aquinas, Voltaire, Adam Smith, Newton, Lincoln, Einstein, et al.

    All of it, collectively, fused, and co-mingled, is our legacy and influences us in ways we generally do not think about.n
    Yes, it's all connected like a stew.
    God bless America and those who defend our Constitution.

    "Hatred is a failure of imagination" - Graham Greene, "The Power and the Glory"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Soul View Post
    You're the one who brought up irrelevant issues. Here is where I started:

    Jesus clearly had the intent of expanding the religion that His Father started with the Jews.
    Awesome. Thanks for participating.
    God bless America and those who defend our Constitution.

    "Hatred is a failure of imagination" - Graham Greene, "The Power and the Glory"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    The author of your book says he has been mischaracterized and that he never claimed Jesus of Nazareth never existed.
    Well, you're somewhat correct in that the the book doesn't explicitly claim that Jesus never existed. The book examines the literary origins of the Jesus myth. But it's pretty evident that there was no magical zombie who floated into the sky 2,000 years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Uncle View Post
    Awesome. Thanks for participating.
    Thanks for admitting how easily I destroyed your position.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Soul View Post
    relevant issues ...
    Jesus clearly had the intent of expanding the
    In my own words:

    Jesus came to benedict fools and doofuses and arrogant despots and the meek that...

    They each and all had individual souls and exist beyond the body.

    --Fin--


    The sin of being ignorant of this basic knowledge "was relieved" by a public display of an
    Avatara that became famous and the talk of the centuries [into kali yuga's annals].


    In Buddhism there is soul that each indivisible persona possesses as their own address [X-Y-Z coordinates]
    A soul is its own vector point. No two vector points can exist in the same place at the same time
    ---and a soul never can be dissolved.
    A soul is active (& conscious) by nature [aka a soul is a nucleus of "sat, cit & ananda"].

    SOoooo,

    A nirvana state [thou I know it to be temporary] cannot be achieved until re-birth [aka samsara] stops.

    Buddhism reformation was to apply brahminical know-how of Yoga moksha for common folks too.

    Hence Buddhas principle of "ahimsa" [non-violence] was an auxiliary yoga principle to shed
    ugra-karma [ugly bad karmic reactions] with the ridding of karmic connections the concept
    of stopping samsara was the goal...nirvana [lit., without-qualities] can be the refuge from samasara.

    SO,

    Jesus's [famed as a political radical protesting against tyrannical rule] STARTED DEMOCRACY by
    injecting the principle that each person mattered; that each person had their own individual indivisible soul.

    If each person has a soul [where previously, only Caesar or the Pharaoh etal had a soul],
    then they were represented in the book of life of human society etc etc
    Last edited by bhaktajan; 03-30-2020 at 03:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    Following up: I am obliged for the civil exchange about an interesting and scholarly topic. I am always surprised at how message board banter drifts towards malicious gossip, petty grudges, character defamation, obsession, and trivial mediocrity
    On this forum, it's really just the Trumpcucks who do that, and like a handful of SJW cucks.

  11. #131 | Top
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    Read how democracy started in print
    Originally Posted by bhaktajan View Post
    Henry VIII was King of England from 1509 until his death in 1547.

    Martin Luther 1483-1546

    Magna Carta Originally published on 15 June 1215


    What is the Magna Carta in simple terms?

    The Magna Carta (Latin for “Great Charter”) was a document
    that gave certain rights to the English people.
    King John of England agreed to it on June 15, 1215.
    The Magna Carta stated that the king must follow the law.
    He could not simply rule as he wished.

    Middle Ages = 1100 to 1453. The period of European history
    from the fall of the Roman Empire in the West (5th century)
    to the fall of Constantinople (1453)
    Quote Originally Posted by StoneByStone View Post
    Just the fact that the Magna Carta was talking about kings proves my point. One of the cornerstones of Western Civilization is Democracy. The Middle Ages wasn't all doom and gloom, but it wasn't the start of Western values.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    Democracy as conceived by Greeks
    I disagree with the use of the term "conceived by"

    Democracy is self-evident.

    But FYI,

    "Sudras" must be corralled by rules and thus enforcers exist.

    Stone layers apply mortar, but a supervisor oversees, and the bankers counts receipts.

    There is always a hierarchy chain of command in operating a production.

    It's labor representation that kicks in later.

    Whilst nature takes it's course a group/clique/landlord/headmaster/country must divvy-up chores.
    --Fin--

    Even the stupid kid in class prefer the smart kids do all the thinking.

  13. #133 | Top
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    The slavery abolition movement was lead first and foremost by progressive Christians: Congregationalists, Quakers, et al.
    So there's something that I might not have been clear with in this thread.

    Religious people can do things despite their own religions. When Christians fought to end slavery, that was them having Enlightenment ideas despite what their own texts and traditions say. Basically, Christians went against Christianity to end slavery.
    And that's why this happened AFTER the Enlightenment. The Reformation was a move away from the stronghold of the Catholic Church. That made the Enlightenment possible, which was a move away from religion as a whole, it's when we stopped making laws based on tradition and religion, and started making laws based on logic and Greek ideas.

    So yeah, there were plenty of great Christians who helped to build Western Civilization, but their ideas were not Christian. I'd compare them to most Christians today who don't live by Christianity, even if they are influenced by their religion here and there.

    Democracy as conceived by Greeks and men of the Enlightenment only applied to rich white men. Women were considered second class at best, domestic slaves at worst.
    That's why I said these ideas come from the Enlightenment with roots in Ancient Athens. Democracy was a Greek idea, but it was greatly expanded upon by European Enlightenment-thinkers. And even today, we're still working on it. For a long time, women weren't allowed to vote in America. However, it was at the Enlightenment that we accepted Democracy and started working on it. As opposed to the Middle Ages, where Democracy was completely off the table because it went against Christianity.

    While Christianity in practice wasn't any better, Jesus and the NT elevated women to a status of equality not seen anywhere in antiquity. The soul of a woman was fully equal to that of a man, even an emperor. Early Christianity had many important female martyrs and saints. That distinguished it from Greek and Roman antiquity which virtually never assigned prestige or influence to women. By the standards of the ancient world Christianity was very radical, and that is one reason Christianity grew so rapidly: it appealed to women
    Yeah, the soul of a woman was equal to that of a man, but on Earth, women were supposed to be subservient to men. Same goes with emperors and the poor. The poor were told in the Bible and by the Church to be subservient to the leaders, even though in Heaven, they would be equal. This is not a good philosophy, it's a philosophy that lends itself to tyranny.

    Whether you realize it or not, the very fact you know intuitively, at the DNA level, that charity, mercy, love for one's neighbors, the golden rule, benevolence, are unequivocally the correct way to live a virtuous life; the fact that you intuitively admire individuals with those traits, is a living testament to how you have been influenced and shaped by the western Christian ethical tradition -- if only through osmosis.

    Its not like Greeks of the 5th century BC didn't know about virtue. But they lived in a world that placed "might makes right" in a preeminent position of conduct. Mercy was intuitively understood to be optional, perhaps even a sign of weakness.
    That's one theory, but science also shows that we evolved altruism. And people who lack altruism usually have a level of mental illness.

    And no, the "Might Makes Right" that Neo-Nazi Darwinist Pagans talk about is wrong. Pagan societies did have mercy and charity. Every society had laws to protect the weak, which may have just been pragmatism, but either way, it existed before Christianity.

    https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/12453

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    Post 133 flings the term SOUL all over the place.

    Do you not recognise that your official sources of the definition of Soul do not exist?

    I am vegetarian.

    I will ask a blunt question: You eat animals? Is it BECAUSE animals don't have a soul?

    So would a tyrant kill someone that he supposed that had a soul?

    Aren't tyrants soul-less?


    The ageless knowledge begins with Self-realisation.

    We are each an individual soul self.

    We are spirit soul, we are not the material body.

    Where is record of the recognition and codification of Soul.


    DYK: anima = soul in latin.

    hence, animated, animation.

    Alma in Spanish
    Atma is Sanskrit


    So, animals are animated by the presence of a conscious soul animating the material body.


    DYK: Spirit-soul is composed of anti-matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bhaktajan View Post
    Read how democracy started in print
    I never said there was nothing good about the Middle Ages. I said that Western Civilization is not based on Christianity, but rather based on the Enlightenment which came after the Middle Ages.

    And really, the Magna Carta was about as effective as muh constitution. It didn't actually stop kings from doing what they wanted.

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