Jesus and Siddhartha Gautama

[Cypress]

So there's something that I might not have been clear with in this thread.

Religious people can do things despite their own religions. When Christians fought to end slavery, that was them having Enlightenment ideas despite what their own texts and traditions say. Basically, Christians went against Christianity to end slavery.
And that's why this happened AFTER the Enlightenment. The Reformation was a move away from the stronghold of the Catholic Church. That made the Enlightenment possible, which was a move away from religion as a whole, it's when we stopped making laws based on tradition and religion, and started making laws based on logic and Greek ideas.

So yeah, there were plenty of great Christians who helped to build Western Civilization, but their ideas were not Christian. I'd compare them to most Christians today who don't live by Christianity, even if they are influenced by their religion here and there.



That's why I said these ideas come from the Enlightenment with roots in Ancient Athens. Democracy was a Greek idea, but it was greatly expanded upon by European Enlightenment-thinkers. And even today, we're still working on it. For a long time, women weren't allowed to vote in America. However, it was at the Enlightenment that we accepted Democracy and started working on it. As opposed to the Middle Ages, where Democracy was completely off the table because it went against Christianity.



Yeah, the soul of a woman was equal to that of a man, but on Earth, women were supposed to be subservient to men. Same goes with emperors and the poor. The poor were told in the Bible and by the Church to be subservient to the leaders, even though in Heaven, they would be equal. This is not a good philosophy, it's a philosophy that lends itself to tyranny.



That's one theory, but science also shows that we evolved altruism. And people who lack altruism usually have a level of mental illness.

And no, the "Might Makes Right" that Neo-Nazi Darwinist Pagans talk about is wrong. Pagan societies did have mercy and charity. Every society had laws to protect the weak, which may have just been pragmatism, but either way, it existed before Christianity.

https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/12453

I see what the problem is. You define Western civilization whatever happened after the French Enlightenment. You consider Western civilization to be the last 250 years.

That's fine.

I consider that to be the late Modern era.

The legacy of western civilization to me includes late antiquity, early, high, and late Middle Ages, Renaissance, early Modern era, and late Modern era.

And historical scholars would generally agree with me.

All those periods of Western history fit together like a jig saw puzzle and build on each other. The Enlightenment did not just appear in a vaccum.

You have to also realize that history and human thought are always influx. The Enlightenment of the 18th century was not the final word on trajectory of the west. The west had a powerful reaction against the Enlightenment in the 19th century during the Romantic era, when people began to resent the implication that all there was to human existence were scientific observations, industrialization, and logic. People of the Romantic era wanted some spirituality, individualism, and respect for emotion to be part of human existence.

We are products of all the traditions - spritual, intellectual, artistic, ethical, literary, philosophical, and scientific - resulting from the trajectory from late Antiquity to the late Modern era

[bhaktajan]

The Imperial cult of ancient Rome identified emperors and some members of their families
with the divinely sanctioned authority (auctoritas) of the Roman State.
Its framework was based on Roman and Greek precedents, and was formulated during
the early Principate of Augustus. It was rapidly established throughout the Empire
and its provinces, with marked local variations in its reception and expression. ...

In my own words:

Jesus came to benedict fools and doofuses and arrogant despots and the meek that...

They each and all had individual souls and exist beyond the body.

--Fin--

The cult of the Emperor as a particularly offensive instrument of pagan impiety and persecution.[1]
It therefore became a focus of theological and political debate during the ascendancy of
Christianity under Constantine I. The emperor Julian failed to reverse the declining support
for Rome's official religious practices: Theodosius I adopted Christianity as Rome's state religion.

Rome's traditional gods and Imperial cult were officially abandoned. However, many of the rites,
practices and status distinctions that characterized the cult to emperors were perpetuated in
the theology and politics of the Christianized Empire.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperi...f_ancient_Rome

[bhaktajan]

The legend of the soul has gone on and on since time immemorial...

Huzzah, there is codification of soul-stuff ...ie
The Tibetan Book of the Dead,
or better yet than Buddhist Sanskrit,
there's the Hindu Sanskrit text of the
Bhagavad-gita-sutra

[StoneByStone]

I see what the problem is. You define Western civilization whatever happened after the French Enlightenment. You consider Western civilization to be the last 250 years.

That's fine.

I consider that to be the late Modern era.

The legacy of western civilization to me includes late antiquity, early, high, and late Middle Ages, Renaissance, early Modern era, and late Modern era.

And historical scholars would generally agree with me.

All those periods of Western history fit together like a jig saw puzzle and build on each other. The Enlightenment did not just appear in a vaccum.

You have to also realize that history and human thought are always influx. The Enlightenment of the 18th century was not the final word on trajectory of the west. The west had a powerful reaction against the Enlightenment in the 19th century during the Romantic era, when people began to resent the implication that all there was to human existence were scientific observations, industrialization, and logic. People of the Romantic era wanted some spirituality, individualism, and respect for emotion to be part of human existence.

We are products of all the traditions - spritual, intellectual, artistic, ethical, literary, philosophical, and scientific - resulting from the trajectory from late Antiquity to the late Modern era

I know some people do consider Western Civilization to be whatever happened in Europe and America since the Indo-European migration or Classical Greece. That doesn't really make much sense to me, because then we're counting radically different cultures as being part of the same civilization. We're saying a Catholic Theocracy is the same civilization as a Democratic Republic. And yeah, I know that cultures evolve. The Democracy of Weimar Germany is not exactly the same as the Democracy of the Federal Republic of Germany. And the culture of Ireland is not the same as the culture of Finland, despite them both being Democracies. But all of these cultures, regardless of period or region, have the same Western cornerstones that were established during the Enlightenment. Sure, there was a backlash against secularism and science during the Romantic period, but we didn't abandon those Western cornerstones. We were still expanding upon things like Democracy and free speech.
If "Western Civilization" is anything that happened in Europe since Classical Greece, then there really are no Western values. Anything from Democracy and Secularism to Dictatorship and Theocracy can be considered Western values, which makes the term meaningless.

[Cypress]

Well, you're somewhat correct in that the the book doesn't explicitly claim that Jesus never existed. The book examines the literary origins of the Jesus myth. But it's pretty evident that there was no magical zombie who floated into the sky 2,000 years ago.

I understood your claim denied Jesus ever historically existed, not that you only denied his divinity.

Lots of people think Jesus was only human, a great prophet of God, but not a divine being who was resurrected.

One billion Muslims believe that.

[Iolo/Penderyn]

The Imperial cult of ancient Rome identified emperors and some members of their families
with the divinely sanctioned authority (auctoritas) of the Roman State.
Its framework was based on Roman and Greek precedents, and was formulated during
the early Principate of Augustus. It was rapidly established throughout the Empire
and its provinces, with marked local variations in its reception and expression. ...



The cult of the Emperor as a particularly offensive instrument of pagan impiety and persecution.[1]
It therefore became a focus of theological and political debate during the ascendancy of
Christianity under Constantine I. The emperor Julian failed to reverse the declining support
for Rome's official religious practices: Theodosius I adopted Christianity as Rome's state religion.

Rome's traditional gods and Imperial cult were officially abandoned. However, many of the rites,
practices and status distinctions that characterized the cult to emperors were perpetuated in
the theology and politics of the Christianized Empire.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperi...f_ancient_Rome

And Paul, as a Roman citizen, had had to learn the notion of men becoming gods. It seems to me an important consideration when we weigh up the way Christianity developed. It would be very satisfying to know what Jesus really thought!

[Cypress]

I know some people do consider Western Civilization to be whatever happened in Europe and America since the Indo-European migration or Classical Greece. That doesn't really make much sense to me, because then we're counting radically different cultures as being part of the same civilization. We're saying a Catholic Theocracy is the same civilization as a Democratic Republic. And yeah, I know that cultures evolve. The Democracy of Weimar Germany is not exactly the same as the Democracy of the Federal Republic of Germany. And the culture of Ireland is not the same as the culture of Finland, despite them both being Democracies. But all of these cultures, regardless of period or region, have the same Western cornerstones that were established during the Enlightenment. Sure, there was a backlash against secularism and science during the Romantic period, but we didn't abandon those Western cornerstones. We were still expanding upon things like Democracy and free speech.
If "Western Civilization" is anything that happened in Europe since Classical Greece, then there really are no Western values. Anything from Democracy and Secularism to Dictatorship and Theocracy can be considered Western values, which makes the term meaningless.

It sounds to me like your focus is on democratic institutions and scientific innovation as the final word on western civilization.

To me, political systems and the scientific method are only two elements that define Western civilization. I believe our lives as prodigy of Western civilization are a result of a rich tapestry of interlocking events, movements, religious and intellectual currents which have occured in the west in the last 2500 years

[StoneByStone]

It sounds to me like your focus is on democratic institutions and scientific innovation as the final word on western civilization.

To me, political systems and the scientific method are only two elements that define Western civilization. I believe our lives as prodigy of Western civilization are a result of a rich tapestry of interlocking events, movements, religious and intellectual currents which have occured in the west in the last 2500 years

Well I agree that the past does influence the future. The Greeks were influence by Ancient Egypt. But the civilization of the Greeks was so incredibly different from that of Egypt, that we all acknowledge them as being two different civilizations. I'd even say Sparta and Athens were extremely different cultures, with one being a free society full of art and philosophy, the other being a totalitarian society all about war. So sure, our modern world has been influenced by Pagan Europe and the Middle Ages, as well as Asia and the Middle East, but the modern Post-Enlightenment world is different enough to be considered a civilization separate from the Middle Ages.

[Cypress]

Well I agree that the past does influence the future. The Greeks were influence by Ancient Egypt. But the civilization of the Greeks was so incredibly different from that of Egypt, that we all acknowledge them as being two different civilizations. I'd even say Sparta and Athens were extremely different cultures, with one being a free society full of art and philosophy, the other being a totalitarian society all about war. So sure, our modern world has been influenced by Pagan Europe and the Middle Ages, as well as Asia and the Middle East, but the modern Post-Enlightenment world is different enough to be considered a civilization separate from the Middle Ages.

I do not think we are that far apart, it comes down to semantics and perspective. Socrates would say it comes down to how one defines terms and boundaries.

I watched a lecture on 19th century philosopher GWF Hegel, and his view of european history strikes me as essentially correct. The concept of freedom, individuality, and democracy in the modern west is unique and did not just randomly happen in a vacuum. It was the cumulative effect and culmination of European history over two millennia. The seeds of the Enlightenment were fertilized in the intellectual traditions and the polis of classical Greece, and in the spirituality, equality, and ethics of early Christianity. The role of an autonomous soul, personal salvation, and a code of ethics taught by Jesus were the origin in the west of what came to be a visceral sense of individuality, equality, and autonomy.

[Bill]

When exactly did it happen?? Do we have a date??

[TexanManWithPlans]

I understood your claim denied Jesus ever historically existed, not that you only denied his divinity.

Lots of people think Jesus was only human, a great prophet of God, but not a divine being who was resurrected.

One billion Muslims believe that.

Jesus never existed. He's a mythological religious figure, like Buddha or Zoroaster. The magical elements of the Jesus story are clearly impossible, and when you take those away, you're left with vague morality teachings that are largely plagiarized from a text called The Book of Enoch, written around 100 BC.

[Iolo/Penderyn]

Jesus never existed. He's a mythological religious figure, like Buddha or Zoroaster. The magical elements of the Jesus story are clearly impossible, and when you take those away, you're left with vague morality teachings that are largely plagiarized from a text called The Book of Enoch, written around 100 BC.

Have you ever read the New Testament? Do so, and then read some mythological stories. The fantasy bits in the Gospels are clearly read back from the notion that Jesus was the Messiah and therefore must fulfil the prophecies. Read The Apology and ask yourself if Socrates belief in his Daemon renders this 'mythological', and then try what Buddha has to say, and see whether he existed. Mythological figures don't come out with things like the Sermon on the Mount, nor do may people die for them.

[StoneByStone]

I do not think we are that far apart, it comes down to semantics and perspective. Socrates would say it comes down to how one defines terms and boundaries.

I watched a lecture on 19th century philosopher GWF Hegel, and his view of european history strikes me as essentially correct. The concept of freedom, individuality, and democracy in the modern west is unique and did not just randomly happen in a vacuum. It was the cumulative effect and culmination of European history over two millennia. The seeds of the Enlightenment were fertilized in the intellectual traditions and the polis of classical Greece, and in the spirituality, equality, and ethics of early Christianity. The role of an autonomous soul, personal salvation, and a code of ethics taught by Jesus were the origin in the west of what came to be a visceral sense of individuality, equality, and autonomy.

I pretty much agree with all of that, except the part about Christianity. I see the Enlightenment as being a step in the opposite direction from Christianity, for reasons I already outlined earlier.
But yeah, in typical human fashion, people used Christianity to justify unchristian ideas. There were Enlightenment philosophers who used Christianity's concept of equality in soul to justify Democracy, despite Democracy being opposed to Christianity. Eh, whatever got the job done.

[StoneByStone]

I do not think we are that far apart, it comes down to semantics and perspective. Socrates would say it comes down to how one defines terms and boundaries.

I watched a lecture on 19th century philosopher GWF Hegel, and his view of european history strikes me as essentially correct. The concept of freedom, individuality, and democracy in the modern west is unique and did not just randomly happen in a vacuum. It was the cumulative effect and culmination of European history over two millennia. The seeds of the Enlightenment were fertilized in the intellectual traditions and the polis of classical Greece, and in the spirituality, equality, and ethics of early Christianity. The role of an autonomous soul, personal salvation, and a code of ethics taught by Jesus were the origin in the west of what came to be a visceral sense of individuality, equality, and autonomy.

I pretty much agree with all of that, except the part about Christianity. I see the Enlightenment as being a step in the opposite direction from Christianity, for reasons I already outlined earlier.
But yeah, in typical human fashion, people used Christianity to justify unchristian ideas. There were Enlightenment philosophers who used Christianity's concept of equality in soul to justify Democracy, despite Democracy being opposed to Christianity.

[PostmodernProphet]

Henry VIII was King of England from 1509 until his death in 1547.

Martin Luther 1483-1546

Magna Carta Originally published on 15 June 1215

What is the Magna Carta in simple terms?
The Magna Carta (Latin for “Great Charter”) was a document
that gave certain rights to the English people.
King John of England agreed to it on June 15, 1215.
The Magna Carta stated that the king must follow the law.
He could not simply rule as he wished.

Middle Ages = 1100 to 1453. The period of European history
from the fall of the Roman Empire in the West (5th century)
to the fall of Constantinople (1453)

the government system involving a two house legislature adopted in England as the House of Lords and House of Commons by William of Orange, then transferred to the US as the Senate and House of Representatives was first created by a guy name John Calvin in Switzerland during the Reformation in the 1400s........