Jesus and Siddhartha Gautama

[Doc Dutch]

Obviously you misquoted him. Jesus clearly had the intent of expanding the religion that His Father started with the Jews.

Clearly? You mean you take the Bible literally like it was a direct recording of every thought and belief of Jesus of Nazareth?

[MAGA MAN]

Clearly? You mean you take the Bible literally like it was a direct recording of every thought and belief of Jesus of Nazareth?

What does "literal" have to do with anything? The Gospel is clear, literally or figuratively, that Jesus started out to teach his Father's Flock buy found deep humanity from outside of it.

[Doc Dutch]

What does "literal" have to do with anything? The Gospel is clear, literally or figuratively, that Jesus started out to teach his Father's Flock buy found deep humanity from outside of it.

Odd that you don't seem to understand the difference between a 100% accurate version of the Gospels and one written several decades later with several edits over a few centuries.

[MAGA MAN]

Odd that you don't seem to understand the difference between a 100% accurate version of the Gospels and one written several decades later with several edits over a few centuries.

Odd that you interject that bullshit into our discussion.

[Doc Dutch]

Odd that you interject that bullshit into our discussion.

What bullshit? You obviously think the Gospels were written down like a secretary was taking dictation at a meeting. You don't understand that they were written about half a century after the Crucifixion and not by the witnesses.

[MAGA MAN]

What bullshit? You obviously think the Gospels were written down like a secretary was taking dictation at a meeting. You don't understand that they were written about half a century after the Crucifixion and not by the witnesses.

What gave you that impression, and why is that relevant to my argument?

[Cypress]

Agreed. Although men twisted it at times, faith in Christianity was a positive turning point for the Mediterranean and, eventually, all of Europe.

There used to be a great show on PBS called "Connections" with James Burke. It linked scientific and cultural changes through history. It pointed out how a lot of things were connected and/or required before other changes could happen.

As you pointed out, religion, specifically Christianity, played an important part in the development of Western Civilization.

I believe it is self-evident.

The great Enlightenment thinker Adam Smith was probably a Deist, and not Christian strictly speaking. But when he spoke to the immoral aspects of capitalism, and the need for the government to ameliorate the suffering of the poor through universal public education and social welfare, he was drawing from the Christian ethical philosophy in the west of benevolence, charity, and mercy.

[StoneByStone]

If you have some quotes of him advocating violence, that this place or that is "Christian Lands" etc I'll certainly read them & take them into account..

There are lots of violent quotes, such as the infamous: "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." (Matthew 10:34)
But really, so much of the Bible is written in a way that is unclear and up for interpretation. I'm sure Christians have been able to twist that quote into actually being about peace. What really matters to me is that all religion conditions people to put feels over reals and conditions society, including Atheists, to accept this as normal. That is what causes people to accept Fake News and blind loyalty to leaders.

Kinda sad that the self-proclaimed local experts are not here to clear the air... They are fighting the good fight for their own Jesus...

This song is fire.

[StoneByStone]

Henry VIII was King of England from 1509 until his death in 1547.

Martin Luther 1483-1546

Magna Carta Originally published on 15 June 1215

What is the Magna Carta in simple terms?
The Magna Carta (Latin for “Great Charter”) was a document
that gave certain rights to the English people.
King John of England agreed to it on June 15, 1215.
The Magna Carta stated that the king must follow the law.
He could not simply rule as he wished.

Middle Ages = 1100 to 1453. The period of European history
from the fall of the Roman Empire in the West (5th century)
to the fall of Constantinople (1453)

Just the fact that the Magna Carta was talking about kings proves my point. One of the cornerstones of Western Civilization is Democracy. The Middle Ages wasn't all doom and gloom, but it wasn't the start of Western values.

[StoneByStone]

The influence of Christianity is more than just the Bible, in same way our debt to Greek antiquity is more than just Plato's Socratic dialogues.

Feel free to believe Western civilization has not been significantly influenced by Christianity.

However, I have taken numerous classes in western civilization, European history, philosophy and the western intellectual tradition, European art history, histories of late antiquity and the middle ages. And every scholarly expert I am aware of rejects your opinion.

So tell me what specific Western ideas come from the Bible, the Catholic Church, or Christian tradition.

Here are some that do not come from any of those things, but rather come from the Enlightenment: Democracy, checks and balances, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, Abolitionism, equality before the law.

[Cypress]

So tell me what specific Western ideas come from the Bible, the Catholic Church, or Christian tradition.

Here are some that do not come from any of those things, but rather come from the Enlightenment: Democracy, checks and balances, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, Abolitionism, equality before the law.

The slavery abolition movement was lead first and foremost by progressive Christians: Congregationalists, Quakers, et al.

Democracy as conceived by Greeks and men of the Enlightenment only applied to rich white men. Women were considered second class at best, domestic slaves at worst. While Christianity in practice wasn't any better, Jesus and the NT elevated women to a status of equality not seen anywhere in antiquity. The soul of a woman was fully equal to that of a man, even an emperor. Early Christianity had many important female martyrs and saints. That distinguished it from Greek and Roman antiquity which virtually never assigned prestige or influence to women. By the standards of the ancient world Christianity was very radical, and that is one reason Christianity grew so rapidly: it appealed to women

As to the rest of your post:

Whether you realize it or not, the very fact you know intuitively, at the DNA level, that charity, mercy, love for one's neighbors, the golden rule, benevolence, are unequivocally the correct way to live a virtuous life; the fact that you intuitively admire individuals with those traits, is a living testament to how you have been influenced and shaped by the western Christian ethical tradition -- if only through osmosis.

Its not like Greeks of the 5th century BC didn't know about virtue. But they lived in a world that placed "might makes right" in a preeminent position of conduct. Mercy was intuitively understood to be optional, perhaps even a sign of weakness.




P.s. yes I am aware Christians frequently do not live up to moral tenets.

Also, I do not consider myself a devout Christian, but I do believe in intellectual honesty, truth, and honoring historical accuracy

[TexanManWithPlans]

I'll take that as a no........ If you have something to present, other than your opinion, I'll be interested in reading it, thanks..

Hm. One good book is The Messiah Myth: The Near Eastern Roots of Jesus and David, by Thomas Thompson.

[Cypress]

Hm. One good book is The Messiah Myth: The Near Eastern Roots of Jesus and David, by Thomas Thompson.

The author of your book says he has been mischaracterized and that he never claimed Jesus of Nazareth never existed.

"my book [never argued] that Jesus had never existed."

- Thomas L. Thompson
http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/tho368005.shtml

[Doc Dutch]

What gave you that impression, and why is that relevant to my argument?

I asked and you trundled off into the weeds. No worries. If you don't want to discuss it, that's fine. It's a free country.

[Doc Dutch]

I believe it is self-evident.

The great Enlightenment thinker Adam Smith was probably a Deist, and not Christian strictly speaking. But when he spoke to the immoral aspects of capitalism, and the need for the government to ameliorate the suffering of the poor through universal public education and social welfare, he was drawing from the Christian ethical philosophy in the west of benevolence, charity, and mercy.

Agreed. The "connections" are self-evident. FWIW, many of the Founders, specifically Jefferson and Franklin were Deists with Christian roots. No doubt they appreciated the wisdom of Jesus even if they did not accept his divinity as the "son of God". From another point of view, we are all children of God and Jesus was just a little wiser than most.

Modern Christians believe in the power of prayer because they believe God will interfere into their lives if they are just and pious. The "every sparrow's fall" taken to an extreme**. Deists accept that God exists but doesn't interfere. Why should he? Life is temporary and eternity awaits. It's not how long we live that matters, but what we do with our lives while we're here.




**Matthew 10:27-31