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Thread: Show Me The Death Certificate

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flanders View Post
    To Concart: How many death certificates have been examined to support “. . . thousands of deaths in excess of the baseline.”?
    Seriously? You don't have to examine death certificates to figure this out. If 158 people die per day on average in New York City, and the death toll is suddenly four times that high, there are deaths in excess of the baseline. Those deaths are being attributed to COVID-19. You claim they aren't from COVID-19. So how do you explain the roughly 23,000 deaths in excess of the baseline over the last couple of months? What killed all those people?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Concart View Post
    What killed all those people?

    To Concart: Heart attacks, diabetes, cancer, drowning, old age, drug addictions, automobiles, suicides, murders, and everything else they can blame on coronavirus —— and for as long as nobody is analyzing thousands of death certificates, or until the public believes Diarrhea Mouth's cure:



    The basic test of freedom is perhaps less in what we are free to do than in what we are free not to do. It is the freedom to refrain, withdraw and abstain which makes a totalitarian regime impossible. Eric Hoffer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flanders View Post

    To Concart: Heart attacks, diabetes, cancer, drowning, old age, drug addictions, automobiles, suicides, murders, and everything else they can blame on coronavirus —— and for as long as nobody is analyzing thousands of death certificates, or until the public believes Diarrhea Mouth's cure:



    No, those would be part of the baseline. They did not cause deaths in NYC to quadruple. Unless you are suggesting that there was a sudden outbreak of heart attacks in NYC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Concart View Post
    Unless you are suggesting that there was a sudden outbreak of heart attacks in NYC.
    To Concart: I am not suggesting. I am saying there is a sudden outbreak of fictional death certificates.
    The basic test of freedom is perhaps less in what we are free to do than in what we are free not to do. It is the freedom to refrain, withdraw and abstain which makes a totalitarian regime impossible. Eric Hoffer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flanders View Post
    To Concart: I am not suggesting. I am saying there is a sudden outbreak of fictional death certificates.
    Wait. So you are claiming those people didn't actually die? ROTFLMFAO!!! You can't be that delusional.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Concart View Post
    Wait. So you are claiming those people didn't actually die? ROTFLMFAO!!! You can't be that delusional.
    To Concart: In plain English even you should understand.

    The corpses are real. The death certificates are fictional.
    The basic test of freedom is perhaps less in what we are free to do than in what we are free not to do. It is the freedom to refrain, withdraw and abstain which makes a totalitarian regime impossible. Eric Hoffer

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    Where is the world are the most popularly known location of the old fashion Mafia?

    I GOOGLED IT:

    New York City
    By the mid-20th century, there were 24 known crime families operating in cities across the country, comprised of some 5,000 “made,” or inducted, members and thousands of associates. America's capital of organized crime was New York City, which had five major Mafia families. Oct 14, 2009

    XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XX

    NYS Governor Cuomo's father had also been the NYS Governor. Mario Cuomo once famously said live on Radio:

    "There is no such thing as the Mafia" [If I recall Mario also removed NYS's Death Penalty ---to be confirmed]

    Denis Miller of SNL did a news report of Mario saying this [BTW, good luck finding the SNL segment. Rare to even find this on the web!]

    XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XX
    Officials raise concerns about CDC counting systems
    By Nick Valencia, CNN
    Fri May 15, 2020

    (CNN)The public health system by which Covid-19 deaths are reported to the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is "antiquated" and "not timely," often lagging by up to three weeks, causing senior leaders at the agency to believe the current death count in the US could be significantly higher, two federal health officials tell CNN.

    Both of the federal health officials said it is not clear just how much higher the Covid-19 death toll might be -- potentially thousands or tens of thousands higher. At issue is the way in which data is sent in from states, the officials said.
    "Provisional death counts may not match counts from other sources, such as media reports or numbers from county health departments," the CDC says on its website. "Our counts often track 1--2 weeks behind other data."
    When reached for comment, CDC spokesman Benjamin Haynes directed CNN to its provisional death counts for Covid-19 on its website.
    As of May 15, CDC data indicates 60,299 deaths. CNN's US death count, fueled by Johns Hopkins University data, currently stands at more than 86,000.
    When asked by CNN's Kaitlan Collins on Friday if he believes the death toll to be accurate, President Donald Trump said, "Those are the numbers that are being reported. I assume they're correct."
    The CDC says states report at different rates. Currently, 63% of all US deaths are reported within 10 days of the date of death, but there is significant variation between states, the agency said.
    "That's part of the problem, we don't know how far of a lag there is, but there definitely is a lag," one of the officials told CNN.
    Currently, the data sent to the CDC is captured two ways, the officials said. The first is through clinicians on the frontlines and state health departments, which both officials told CNN was "not up to date for the year 2020" and is contributing to the lag.
    "It's hard to say how far behind, but on the weekend it goes down. Monday and Tuesday, it goes back up. There is some natural lag," one of the officials said about the death counts being reported to the CDC.
    "The data that CDC gets is only as good as the data submitted to the agency by the clinics on the frontline and the state health departments," the second official added. "There's varying degrees of states' abilities to use electronic systems to gather and share that data with the CDC."
    Specifically, local health officials must physically write the death certificates and send them to the National Center for Health Statistics, causing what can be a two-to-three week delay in recording results accurately.
    As a result of the lag, in mid-April the Council of State and Territorial Epidemiologists began a second way of collecting data on Covid-19 deaths, which included counting deaths due to Covid-19 from "actual confirmed cases as well as probable cases," one official said.
    The CDC has been working on a major data modernization initiative to "spruce up the system," primarily by giving the state and local health departments the ability to gather data electronically in real time, the federal officials said.
    The system, which would help digitize the data using modern technology, will not be up and running until later this year, one official said.
    The officials are not the only ones raising concerns that America's true death toll might be much higher -- for a variety of reasons.
    The CDC, in several reports, has found the nation's "excess deaths" have exceeded the coronavirus death counts. And at a Tuesday hearing before the Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions, Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders told White House task force member Dr. Anthony Fauci that there are "some epidemiologists who suggest the number may be 50% higher."
    Fauci responded that he wasn't sure about the 50% number, "but most of us feel that the number of deaths are likely higher than that number because given the situation, particularly in New York City, when they were really strapped with a very serious challenge to their health care system that there may have been people who died at home who did have Covid, who were not counted as Covid because they never really got to the hospital."
    "So in direct answer to your question, I think you are correct that the number is likely higher. I don't know exactly what percent higher," Fauci said.
    https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/15/polit...ems/index.html
    Last edited by bhaktajan; 05-20-2020 at 02:40 PM.

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    Examining dead bodies and probing for a cause of death is rarely seen as a heroic or glamorous job. Rather, as the coronavirus pandemic has unfolded, all eyes have been on the medical workers and public health disease detectives fighting on the front lines ― and sometimes giving their lives — to bring the novel coronavirus under control.

    But as the crusade to test for the coronavirus and trace cases continues, medical examiners and coroners play a vital — if often unsung ― role. These “last responders” are typically called on to investigate and determine the cause of deaths that are unexpected or unnatural, including deaths that occur at home.

    In the early days of the outbreak, a scarcity of tests often hampered their efforts. Now, as that equipment gradually becomes more widely available, these professionals may be able to fill in answers about how people died and if those deaths were related to the coronavirus.

    Those changes won’t happen at once or uniformly across the country, experts predict. In addition, an increase in postmortem testing is likely to put coroners and medical examiners in the middle of a debate heating up about the true number of COVID-19 casualties.

    Determining how many people the virus has killed is an ongoing bone of contention. Some defenders of the Trump administration’s response charge that death estimates are inflated, often because they include people who were presumed to have died of the disease but not tested for it. Administration critics counter that the chaotic rollout of testing and treatment led to thousands of needless deaths that aren’t represented in the official death toll.

    Even now, months after the emergence of COVID-19 in the United States, the availability of test kits and testing materials, such as nasal swabs, remains inadequate in many places. Public health experts agree that broad-based testing is critical for people to safely emerge from lockdown and for businesses and other institutions to safely reopen.

    “Some localities are prioritizing testing sick people over dead people, and that’s probably a good decision if they have limited testing available,” said Dr. Sally Aiken, the medical examiner for Spokane County, Washington, who is also president of the National Association of Medical Examiners.

    As availability increases, however, stepping up postmortem COVID-19 testing could uncover important clues about the spread of the virus, experts say.

    During the pandemic, many sick people have stayed at home and died there rather than seeking help at hospitals overwhelmed with coronavirus patients.

    In April in New York City, for example, a reported 200 residents died at home each day, compared with 20 such deaths before the pandemic, a spokesperson for the city’s medical examiner told WNYC, the local public radio station.

    Tests were not possible in many of those instances. But with more tests, such cases are now getting attention.

    “Most of the ones we test are the individuals who die at home,” said Gary Watts, the coroner in Richland County, South Carolina, who is president of the International Association of Coroners and Medical Examiners.

    If family or friends say the person had symptoms consistent with COVID-19, the coroner’s office will typically do a nasal swab to test for the virus, he said. If the test is positive and the office can determine the cause of death without an autopsy, one will generally not be performed.

    Coroners and medical examiners have similar responsibilities but their backgrounds are often different. Coroners are typically elected officials who may or may not have a medical degree. Medical examiners are typically medical doctors and may have a specialty in forensic pathology.

    Like Watts, Dr. Kent Harshbarger, the coroner for Montgomery County, Ohio, which includes the city of Dayton, said his office now has enough tests to determine if COVID-19 was involved in suspect deaths, unlike during the pandemic’s early days.

    With more postmortem testing, “you can do better contact tracing,” he said.

    A few medical examiners and coroners are now stepping up testing significantly, performing tests on all the bodies that are brought in, said Aiken.

    “They’re surprised at some of the people who are positive,” including suicides and car accidents, she said.

    One reason for increasing testing is to protect the staff who are handling the bodies, said Dr. Judy Melinek, a forensic pathologist in the San Francisco area and CEO of PathologyExpert.

    If a body at the morgue is positive for COVID-19, “you want to avoid doing an autopsy unless it’s absolutely necessary,” Melinek said, because of the risk of becoming exposed to the virus through aerosolized particles or blood. Plus, she noted, the Occupational Safety and Health Administration recommends against performing autopsies in COVID-19 deaths.

    Even if coroners and medical examiners aren’t doing extensive nasal-swab testing on the recently deceased, they can provide vital information later on, some note.

    It’s standard practice to take blood samples from patients who are sent to the morgue, and coroners and medical examiners typically keep blood samples on hand for up to a year. Testing those blood samples for antibodies to the coronavirus, which would indicate a prior infection, could give public health experts a clearer sense of when the virus arrived in the United States and the extent of its spread.

    It won’t identify every undiagnosed infection, since antibodies don’t show up until one to three weeks after infection occurs, according to the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. People may die before then. Still, postmortem antibody testing could provide useful information, experts say.

    “If we can figure out when [the virus] arrived in the U.S., we can figure out a lot more about how this virus came through and was undetected,” Melinek said.

    Going forward, as public health experts and politicians contemplate decisions about reopening the country for business and the possibility of a resurgence of the virus, the more concrete information available the better, experts say.

    “Postmortem testing is helpful and important when it is balanced by the logistical feasibility of doing it,” said Lorna Thorpe, a professor of epidemiology at New York University’s Grossman School of Medicine. “When politics enters this space, it’s nice to have confirmed cases so that it can’t be critiqued.”

    This story was produced by Kaiser Health News, an editorially independent program of the Kaiser Family Foundation.

    https://www.desertsun.com/story/news...hs/5225052002/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flanders View Post
    To Concart: Heart attacks, diabetes, cancer, drowning, old age, drug addictions, automobiles, suicides, murders, and everything else they can blame on coronavirus . . .
    To Concart: I forgot to include the big one —— STAPH INFECTIONS. The coronavirus was a boon to hospitals. Everybody that dies of a staph infection in a hospital can forever be blamed on COVID-19. Note that hospitals write the death certificates. And lets not forget that rigged death certificates guaranties a huge reduction in lawsuits:

    As bad as contaminated blood is, how many Americans know that staph infections picked up in hospitals kills more people every year than does AIDS? Today’s totals are hard to pin down because hospital lobbies, and United Nations charity hustlers, have a vested interest in awarding the title to AIDS; nevertheless, I doubt if anything has changed since 2007:


    Oct. 16, 2007 -- It appears that more people in the U.S. now die from the mostly hospital-acquired staph infection MRSA than from AIDS, according to a new report from the CDC.

    By Salynn Boyles
    WebMD Health News

    https://www.webmd.com/skin-problems-...sa-than-aids#1


    Before hundreds of billions more tax dollars are sent into the healthcare system —— hospital deaths caused by hospitals should be reduced to zero.

    Aside from the other horrors the number of patients that die each year in hospitals from infections they picked up in the hospital is tragic beyond words.

    One of my heartfelt reforms focused on hospital deaths caused by staph infections that patients pick up in unsanitary hospitals. Conditions will worsen after millions of parasites get jobs with lifetime tenure attached. Unions will see to it that no dues-paying, filthy, lazy bum will ever be fired.

    J. R. Dunn puts deaths from iatrogenic "superbug" infection at 30,000 a year in Great Britain. This excerpt is from the same article about Sarah Plain:

    The British National Health Service, the mother of all nationalized health systems, has had what amounts to a "death panel" system since 2005. Under the terms of the Mental Capacity Act, patients unable to communicate with hospital personnel are considered to be "due to die" and are removed from all forms of life support, including food and water. In other words, given the same treatment meted out to Terry Schiavo.

    The most notorious recent case involving this act occurred last year when Mrs. Ellen Westwood, an 88-year-old retiree, entered Birmingham's Selly Oak hospital for shoulder surgery. While recovering she caught the inevitable iatrogenic "superbug" infection, a daily occurrence in British hospitals, and one which costs up to 30,000 lives a year. Without further ado, the Selly Oak doctors declared Mrs. Westwood "due to die" and began the process of shutting her down.


    Based on populations alone, American hospitals are only slightly better than hospital-caused deaths in the U.K. America’s population is over 300,000,000 while the U.K. has a population of 61,000,000. The number of deaths caused by hospitals is higher in Great Britain. That will change due to the aforementioned protections the ACA will provide for parasite scum.

    Even if you cite the number of deaths caused by US hospitals the number of deaths from staph infections in the U.K. is a condemnation of socialized medicine everywhere. Hospital-caused deaths is a fair argument to use against those who point to socialized medicine in the U.K. as a model of compassion and efficiency.

    Incidentally, the lower number of deaths in US hospitals has a lot to with lawsuits, and the fact that cruel indifference is yet to reach the levels found in U.K. hospitals.

    Stimulus for patients

    The public is treated to a wonderful image of a successful industry saving lives. The public seldom hears about the filth that hospital patients are subjected to every day. I would not give another penny to the medical industry until that industry cleans up its act from top to bottom —— and I mean a provable permanent housecleaning. Before hundreds of billions of tax dollars are added to the healthcare system —— hospital deaths caused by unsanitary conditions should be reduced to zero.

    The unsanitary conditions in existing hospitals has long been one of my complaints. Conditions can only worsen after the parasites dominate hospital staffs. My contention has been that single-occupancy rooms would go a long way towards reducing infections acquired in hospitals, not to mention improving overall patient comfort and care.

    I suggested that existing hospitals be given five or so years to convert to single occupancy rooms. Any hospital failing to comply after the grace period has elapsed would lose ALL government reimbursements —— federal and state. Such a move toward reform on behalf of patients instead of reform designed to enrich insurance companies and Wall Street would spark a wave of new, “healthier” hospitals once the cost of new construction is compared to the cost of conversion.

    Since hospitals are profit-making enterprises the owners could be given tax breaks to make the transition. I would not give them a penny of taxpayer money directly whether they build new, or convert existing hospitals. There is also a built-in financial stimulus to an economy that everybody in Washington always tells us needs fixing; a stimulus that actually helps everyone rather than just enriching insurance company executives and Wall Street sharpshooters.

    Anybody who wants to followup can find plenty of medical horror stories out there that have nothing to do with lack of coverage. Here are two articles that will give you a good handle on where socialized medicine ends up:

    JANUARY 8, 2009
    Hospital Scrubs Are a Germy, Deadly Mess
    Bacteria on doctor uniforms can kill you.
    By BETSY MCCAUGHEY

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123137245971962641

    XXXXX

    Deaths caused by hospital mistakes 'up 60 per cent in two years'
    By Jon Swaine
    Last Updated: 10:58AM GMT 06 Jan 2009

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/41...two-years.html

    https://www.justplainpolitics.com/sh...50#post2968450
    The basic test of freedom is perhaps less in what we are free to do than in what we are free not to do. It is the freedom to refrain, withdraw and abstain which makes a totalitarian regime impossible. Eric Hoffer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flanders View Post
    To Concart: Heart attacks, diabetes, cancer, drowning, old age, drug addictions, automobiles, suicides, murders, and everything else they can blame on coronavirus
    Quote Originally Posted by Flanders View Post
    To Concart: I forgot to include the big one —— STAPH INFECTIONS.
    There is no mention of staph infections in this article:


    More than 600 doctors signed onto a letter sent to President Trump . . .

    XXXXX

    The letter continues: "The millions of casualties of a continued shutdown will be hiding in plain sight, but they will be called alcoholism, homelessness, suicide, heart attack, stroke, or kidney failure. In youths it will be called financial instability, unemployment, despair, drug addiction, unplanned pregnancies, poverty, and abuse.
    XXXXX

    "The vast majority of the people that contract this disease are asymptomatic or so minimally symptomatic that they're not even aware that they're sick. And so the denominator in our calculation of mortality rate is far greater than we think," he said. "The risk of dying from COVID is relatively small when we consider these facts."


    Doctors raise alarm about health effects of continued coronavirus shutdown: 'Mass casualty incident'
    By Tyler Olson | Fox News

    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/doc...virus-shutdown

    p.s. There is no reason for President Trump to lower Old Glory. The actual number of Americans killed by coronavirus will never exceed 100,000. I doubt if it will exceed a few hundred when the truth is known:



    House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer wrote to President Trump on Thursday to request federal flags be flown at half-mast to mark the number of coronavirus deaths.

    The pair of Democratic leaders asked for the measure to mark “the sad day of reckoning” when deaths from the coronavirus in the United States cross the 100,000-person threshold.

    Democrats want Trump to lower federal flags at 100,000 coronavirus deaths
    by Susan Ferrechio
    May 21, 2020 10:15 AM

    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...navirus-deaths

    Diarrhea Mouth Pelosi and Vomit Schumer have every reason to lower their flag on the day the coronavirus scam is finally uncovered for all to see:



    Last edited by Flanders; 05-21-2020 at 09:40 AM.
    The basic test of freedom is perhaps less in what we are free to do than in what we are free not to do. It is the freedom to refrain, withdraw and abstain which makes a totalitarian regime impossible. Eric Hoffer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flanders View Post
    . . . rigged death certificates guaranties a huge reduction in lawsuits:


    You can bet your ass that Diarrhea Mouth wants liability protection for hospitals and their Service Employees International Union (SEIU) dues-paying members:

    Unions worry Congress is one step closer to a liability shield
    By Alex Gangitano
    05/21/20 06:00 AM EDT

    https://thehill.com/business-a-lobby...ability-shield
    The basic test of freedom is perhaps less in what we are free to do than in what we are free not to do. It is the freedom to refrain, withdraw and abstain which makes a totalitarian regime impossible. Eric Hoffer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flanders View Post
    p.s. There is no reason for President Trump to lower Old Glory. The actual number of Americans killed by coronavirus will never exceed 100,000. I doubt if it will exceed a few hundred when the truth is known:
    What an asshole:

    Donald Trump Will Order Flags at Half Staff in Memory of Americans Lost to Coronavirus
    by Charlie Spiering
    21 May 2020

    https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2...o-coronavirus/
    The basic test of freedom is perhaps less in what we are free to do than in what we are free not to do. It is the freedom to refrain, withdraw and abstain which makes a totalitarian regime impossible. Eric Hoffer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flanders View Post
    To Concart: In plain English even you should understand.

    The corpses are real. The death certificates are fictional.
    So again, how do you account for death tolls four times higher than the baseline? So far you seem to be avoiding that question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Concart View Post
    So again, how do you account for death tolls four times higher than the baseline? So far you seem to be avoiding that question.

    To Concart.
    You will find your answer in everything I said in this thread and others. If the answer is too much for your reading comprehension skills try answering your own question.

    I can respond to this in five words:


    Why the US has the most reported coronavirus cases in the world
    By Peter Sullivan
    05/21/20 06:00 AM EDT

    https://thehill.com/policy/healthcar...s-in-the-world

    Democrat parasites and tax dollars.
    The basic test of freedom is perhaps less in what we are free to do than in what we are free not to do. It is the freedom to refrain, withdraw and abstain which makes a totalitarian regime impossible. Eric Hoffer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flanders View Post

    To Concart.
    You will find your answer in everything I said in this thread and others. If the answer is too much for your reading comprehension skills try answering your own question.

    I can respond to this in five words:


    Why the US has the most reported coronavirus cases in the world
    By Peter Sullivan
    05/21/20 06:00 AM EDT

    https://thehill.com/policy/healthcar...s-in-the-world

    Democrat parasites and tax dollars.
    I accept your unconditional surrender.

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